Another new Brexit thread

[Len Rum]

I am listening to the cricket whilst on a train - sadly I think that the optimism has just come to a close

Same with Brexit really.
Shame that Mavis's deal didn't go through. That met the criteria of the binary question in the referendum.
Didn't it mate?

 

[Fred_Quimby]

 

[kaz7]

Boris Johnson will "test to the limit" a law that forces him to try to delay Brexit to avoid no-deal, the foreign secretary has told Sky News.

Dominic Raab called the bill "lousy" and vowed to check "very carefully what it does and doesn't require" but insisted the government would not break the law.

Labour's shadow attorney general Baroness Shami Chakrabarti responded by comparing Downing Street's actions to "the Joker in the Dark Knight" for trying to create "chaos".

French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian alo intervened on Europe 1 radio to say the Brexit situation was "very worrying" and warned of a delay: "We are not going to do this every three months."

Appearing on Sky News' Sophy Ridge on Sunday, Mr Raab dismissed a bill pushed through parliament this week after it was helped by Tory MPs who took control of its agenda and were subsequently expelled from the party.

The law, which is due to come into force when it receives Royal Assent on Monday, instructs the PM to ask Brussels to delay Brexit if no deal has been agreed by 19 October or MPs have not endorsed a no-deal divorce.

The foreign secretary said: "What we are going to do with that legislation is test very carefully what it does and doesn't require.

"That's not only the lawful thing to do it's the responsible thing to do.

"We're always going to behave lawfully as a government, and anyway it will be challenged in the courts."

Mr Raab admitted it had been a "rough week" for the Conservatives after 21 MPs were booted out of the party and Mrs Rudd resigned as work and pensions secretary to sit in parliament as an independent.

He said he was "really sorry" to see the Hastings and Rye MP go, but insisted the prime minister was "right to restore some discipline and right to expect it from his top team".

And turning Ms Rudd's accusation of "political vandalism" back on her, Mr Raab said MPs taking control of the parliamentary agenda was "the real vandalism to democracy that's going on".

Love the last line,cheeky **** after he supported boris shutting down parliament,you can't get worse than that in a democracy,looks like this will be fight in the courts,all those countries we tried to force democracy on must be pissing themselves

Ages till oct 19th,i think something will get done by then

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Boris Johnson will "test to the limit" a law that forces him to try to delay Brexit to avoid no-deal, the foreign secretary has told Sky News.

Dominic Raab called the bill "lousy" and vowed to check "very carefully what it does and doesn't require" but insisted the government would not break the law.

Labour's shadow attorney general Baroness Shami Chakrabarti responded by comparing Downing Street's actions to "the Joker in the Dark Knight" for trying to create "chaos".

French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian alo intervened on Europe 1 radio to say the Brexit situation was "very worrying" and warned of a delay: "We are not going to do this every three months."

Appearing on Sky News' Sophy Ridge on Sunday, Mr Raab dismissed a bill pushed through parliament this week after it was helped by Tory MPs who took control of its agenda and were subsequently expelled from the party.

The law, which is due to come into force when it receives Royal Assent on Monday, instructs the PM to ask Brussels to delay Brexit if no deal has been agreed by 19 October or MPs have not endorsed a no-deal divorce.

The foreign secretary said: "What we are going to do with that legislation is test very carefully what it does and doesn't require.

"That's not only the lawful thing to do it's the responsible thing to do.

"We're always going to behave lawfully as a government, and anyway it will be challenged in the courts."

Thoroughly dishonest legal opinion incoming from the AG.

 

[Vic]

That has no relevance to the series of posts that I, in admiration, quoted

Just seems a distraction from MSC's excellent setting out of undeniable facts

Mind you it was so well done I can understand people wishing to distract

Why is everything a distraction? I'm not likely to post to support your mutual admiration society.

I posted about an unelected guy ensconced in 10 Downing Street who recognised both the difficulty of educating the public (probably because of their indifference or their preference to believe newspaper tripe) and the difficulty of negotiating a deal because of the conflicting aims of Leavers, and who then said "let's swerve it" - just have a binary vote (which I think was part of MSC's argument) - i.e. keep it simple for simple people.

 

[Vic]

Love the last line,cheeky **** after he supported boris shutting down parliament,you can't get worse than that in a democracy,looks like this will be fight in the courts,all those countries we tried to force democracy on must be pissing themselves

Ages till oct 19th,i think something will get done by then

Hopefully, Johnson will get done by then. ("You do not have to say anything....")

 

[bluethrunthru]

Inconvenient truths for some

 

[George Hannah]

Inconvenient truths for some

The Government also sent a letter to every household in the country informing us that the outcome of the referendum would be honoured.
"A once in a generation decision The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

 

[Blueknows]

The Government also sent a letter to every household in the country informing us that the outcome of the referendum woud be honoured.
"A once in a generation decision The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

we were told.....ITS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VOTE ......Also didn't 500 MPs vote to trigger article 50 to leave on march 29th with or without a deal ?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Why is everything a distraction? I'm not likely to post to support your mutual admiration society.

I posted about an unelected guy ensconced in 10 Downing Street who recognised both the difficulty of educating the public (probably because of their indifference or their preference to believe newspaper tripe) and the difficulty of negotiating a deal because of the conflicting aims of Leavers, and who then said "let's swerve it" - just have a binary vote (which I think was part of MSC's argument) - i.e. keep it simple for simple people.

Its worth noting that there are also many different types of remain, but none of these were on the ballot paper either. I feel the public were mislead and those who voted remain had no idea what remain would look like - further/less integration, an expanded EU, single currency, EU army etc. I can't help but feel many remain voters would have voted leave had they seen the range of options possible within the simple binary choice. I'm not accusing Remainers of being stupid or anything, it's just now we are aware of all the difficulties and nuance available within the simple 'remain' choice we should put it back to the people with a GE where they can choose a party to govern based upon their wish to leave or remain with the facts now available.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The Government also sent a letter to every household in the country informing us that the outcome of the referendum woud be honoured.
"A once in a generation decision The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

we can all copy and paste - mine I feel trumps yours - not least because it has been repeated over and over again. To make a referendum result legally binding it has to be legislated for in the introduction ( as was the case in the Sottish Indy Ref ) - the law does trump a government leaflet

Referendums in the United Kingdom are occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.

 

[George Hannah]

we can all copy and paste - mine I feel trumps yours - not least because it has been repeated over and over again. To make a referendum result legally binding it has to be legislated for in the introduction ( as was the case in the Sottish Indy Ref ) - the law does trump a government leaflet

Referendums in the United Kingdom are occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.

So the public were intentionally misled, told that their vote would be implemented but not told it wouldn't be if they made the wrong choice.
Is that right?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The Government also sent a letter to every household in the country informing us that the outcome of the referendum woud be honoured.
"A once in a generation decision The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

Thanks for posting - I was beginning to think I had recieved a special limited edition one and the wording on everyone else's was more vague about the implications of the result.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

So the public were intentionally misled, told that their vote would be implemented but not told it wouldn't be if they made the wrong choice.
Is that right?

Given thst Cameron and Osborne clearly didn't anticipate anything other than a remain vote I'd say there was no intent whatsoever, just supreme arrogance and lack of judgement; that's been enough to fuck us.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Given thst Cameron and Osborne clearly didn't anticipate anything other than a remain vote I'd say there was no intent whatsoever, just supreme arrogance and lack of judgement; that's been enough to fuck us.

Pair of chancers emboldened by that electoral reform referendum we were discussing

 

[BobKowalski]

Lots of chatter about a new deal in the offing. Basically it’s the original backstop deal with NI hived off from mainland Britain which is the EU’s preferred version of the backstop and the one we originally agreed to back in December 2017 which the DUP torpedoed at the last minute. Our choice was always a land border or a sea border so a sea border it is.

Hard line Unionists will go nuts but the thinking is the Govts majority no longer depends on the DUP so we are reheating May’s WA, sticking a NI only backstop on it and seeing if it can get through Parliament. Still need the extension though.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Pair of chancers emboldened by that electoral reform referendum we were discussing

I was spectacularly wrong about Cameron. I thought he was an effective PM, despite me not being a Tory, but there's no escaping from the notion that I was mistaken, as he has to be judged on Brexit, as he spawned it, which means he was an utterly wank PM.

Well done, Dave.

 

[bluethrunthru]

So the public were intentionally misled, told that their vote would be implemented but not told it wouldn't be if they made the wrong choice.
Is that right?

No - they failed to understand or were not fully informed that a referendum result is advisory not compulsory unless specifically legislated for. The vote may well have been the same but they would have been aware that the result was not legally mandated to be implemented.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Lots of chatter about a new deal in the offing. Basically it’s the original backstop deal with NI hived off from mainland Britain which is the EU’s preferred version of the backstop and the one we originally agreed to back in December 2017 which the DUP torpedoed at the last minute. Our choice was always a land border or a sea border so a sea border it is.

Hard line Unionists will go nuts but the thinking is the Govts majority no longer depends on the DUP so we are reheating May’s WA, sticking a NI only backstop on it and seeing if it can get through Parliament. Still need the extension though.

That's got to be the least worst option presently on option.

 

[Vic]

Its worth noting that there are also many different types of remain, but none of these were on the ballot paper either. I feel the public were mislead and those who voted remain had no idea what remain would look like - further/less integration, an expanded EU, single currency, EU army etc. I can't help but feel many remain voters would have voted leave had they seen the range of options possible within the simple binary choice. I'm not accusing Remainers of being stupid or anything, it's just now we are aware of all the difficulties and nuance available within the simple 'remain' choice we should put it back to the people with a GE where they can choose a party to govern based upon their wish to leave or remain with the facts now available.

I take your point but it wasn't why Cummings didn't want to educate people about what Brexit would mean. I'm not sure why a GE would be a better way to decide Brexit than a referendum on whether to accept whatever deal was on offer (and the second referendum idea came from Cummings - though I doubt whether the Labour party traces its policy back to him).