Another new Brexit thread

[Rascal]

Tell that to over 17 Million leave voters, many of which vote Labour.

I try, but sadly education is not what it was and a dumbed down society is much easier to con.

 

[Banned Tosspot]

That's got to be a first.
I've liked the same post as Tosspot.

Love you x

 

[Ban-jani]

Corbyn is very undesirable.

The Fascists currently hijacking the country are driving people toward him, because they are even worse. Far worse.

Corbyn should be the absolute limit of unelectability, but he's being made to look normal by these people.

Why do you think he’s so undesirable?

 

[Banned Tosspot]

I try, but sadly education is not what it was and a dumbed down society is much easier to con.

Coming from a guy that doesn't know the difference between their, there and they're?

 

[Rascal]

Corbyn is very undesirable.

The Fascists currently hijacking the country are driving people toward him, because they are even worse. Far worse.

Corbyn should be the absolute limit of unelectability, but he's being made to look normal by these people.

Fascists do have some use then.

That's a fucking first.

 

[blueinsa]

Why? Do you not think the Irish are entitled to want a united ireland?>

Absolutely they are but they are not entitled to murder to get it, nor are Loyalists allowed to stop it from happening via the democratic process.

Are people not allowed to vote to leave the EU?

Imagine a vote to unite Ireland winning and Parliament and MP's saying yeah but we cant agree on how it should happen so sorry.....not happening.

 

[Ban-jani]

Hahaha

Let’s try and be grown up about it for once shall we?

He’s not perfect at all and I’ve had many concerns about him but he’s the only one with a genuinely left wing manifesto that’s social democratic. Many on here would class themselves as left of centre but then don’t really want it.

Why don’t you want him?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yellow Hammer = anagram of Orwell Mayhem

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Absolutely they are but they are not entitled to murder to get it, nor are Loyalists allowed to stop it from happening via the democratic process.

Are people not allowed to vote to leave the EU?

Imagine a vote to unite Ireland winning and Parliament and MP's saying yeah but we cant agree on how it should happen so sorry.....not happening.

But the British were able to murder and brutalise to stop it happening?.....this is a chicken and egg discussion....the point being some politicians realised there was a worth in talking to and understanding the position of (despicable) people. in the long run, it has largely worked.

And whats the point of suggesting a scenario that just wouldnt/wont happen. Ridiculous.

 

[west didsblue]

Let’s try and be grown up about it for once shall we?

He’s not perfect at all and I’ve had many concerns about him but he’s the only one with a genuinely left wing manifesto that’s social democratic. Many on here would class themselves as left of centre but then don’t really want it.

Why don’t you want him?

Personally the perception of being soft on anti-Semitism isn't a good look.
The sharing platforms with Islamic extremists is another unlikeable feature.
The stated intention to never use our deterrent thus effectively nullifying it is a third.

Having said that Farage is worse. Much worse.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Why? Do you not think the Irish are entitled to want a united ireland?>

No, that you would talk about a group that "wanted it's country back" to justify their actions (even though you try to distance yourself by saying "I don't condone but ..."). There are violent right-wing groups that feel they are standing for exactly the same ("wanting their country back") and they are equally despicable. Additionally there are terrorist groups in the NI that want to remain part of the UK and I feel the same about them - there isn't really a scale of despicability in my book when it comes to any of these groups.

It was posted a page or two back that a recent poll suggested 51% of those in N Ireland might vote for a united Ireland but that leaves 49% who might not. Are these to be told "You lost, get over it". Just like Brexit, it's an even split.

Anyway, we've gone over to a different topic. I was counterpointing an argument that someone shouldn't vote for a particular person because of their links to undesired groups and that cap fits in many places in my view. All the main actors in this farce are as dangerous as each other (Swinson apart, perhaps) in my view.

 

[Ban-jani]

Personally the perception of being soft on anti-Semitism isn't a good look.
The sharing platforms with Islamic extremists is another unlikeable feature.
The stated intention to never use our deterrent thus effectively nullifying it is a third.

Having said that Farage is worse. Much worse.

Totally agree on most of these points and the antisemitism issues have always been my biggest criticism of Corbyn and those leading Labour.

That said I feel they did turn a corner on this and things have dramatically improved.

The lack of intention on using trident is a mistake I agree but I think once he gets closer to office or is in office, he will change his tune, when he really has to.

Sharing a platform with extremists is a naive mistake and he mustn’t let his opposition to Israel’s actions cloud who he mixes with.

I think all of these points he has improved on and his manifesto is mostly exactly what the country needs, that’s why I can now vote Labour again.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Just reading yellowhammer. Bloody hell

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

No, that you would talk about a group that "wanted it's country back" to justify their actions (even though you try to distance yourself by saying "I don't condone but ..."). There are violent right-wing groups that feel they are standing for exactly the same ("wanting their country back") and they are equally despicable. Additionally there are terrorist groups in the NI that want to remain part of the UK and I feel the same about them - there isn't really a scale of despicability in my book when it comes to any of these groups.

It was posted a page or two back that a recent poll suggested 51% of those in N Ireland might vote for a united Ireland but that leaves 49% who might not. Are these to be told "You lost, get over it". Just like Brexit, it's an even split.

Anyway, we've gone over to a different topic. I was counterpointing an argument that someone shouldn't vote for a particular person because of their links to undesired groups and that cap fits in many places in my view. All the main actors in this farce are as dangerous as each other (Swinson apart, perhaps) in my view.

yes we have gone on to a different topic...

Trying to regain your country from occupying forces with armed troops on the streets and murdering innocent people is a bit different than a bunch of EDL twats "wanting their country back" from destitute, terrified brown people.

And those "terrorists" who want to remain part of the UK?...Captain Mainwaring and Pike come to mind...

 

[purplenose]

17m went to the polls and did not declare it a crock of shit, they expressed a desire to leave. A similar, although slightly smaller amount of people went to the polls and expressed a desire to remain even if they thought it was a crock of shit. A crock of shit was never on the ballot paper and a significant number of people for whatever reason didnt even vote for or against this apparent crock of shit. That is the problem with referendum, people vote for imaginary crocks of shit or against imaginary crocks of shit rather than for positions that are believable and reasonable. There is increasing Economic gloom across the world, not just the EU this has much to do with Sino-USA trade war and the American bond markets reflect that, it has a negative yield curve which is a predictor of a world wide recession, not just an EU recession. Of course larger economies support smaller ones, London supports the UK economy for instance as its the dominant factor in the UK. The areas on the periphery should in theory benefit from London's wealth creation, that it does not is not the fault of the EU it is the fault of the UK government and its London/South East centric policies. They acknowledged that by producing the northern powerhouse policy. That it has been a damp squib is the fault of the UK not the EU. There has been a staggering rise in the far right across Europe, mainly down to the fears of immigration. This is classic Alt-right terrority and fear of the unknown is easily exploited for political gain. Farage and his infamous poster based on Nazi propaganda was a huge factor in raising tensions, as was Mays send them home buses. The lack of understanding around immigration is shocking in this country and the demonisation of immigrants is nothing short of disgusting. That we helped this create this problem is overlooked and we have not taken responsibilty for our actions.

There is no indication that we are heading towards more federalisation, which is a shame as i would welcome it, why would it increase tensions with Russia, they have enough of their own issues and Putin is under pressure at home. The fear of Russian Bear is cold war stuff, the cold war is past history and Russia IMHO should at some point be welcomed into the EU.

How exactly are the EU changing the way people live, their ethnic and religious leanings? What are these clear plans? Perhaps you could explain this to us. Please don't answer with any ridiculous reference to the White Nationalist,anti semite, Count Coudenhove -Kalergi

As for your last point, the UK has managed to live together for centuries, it has a single currency, it has a Parliament albeit with new regional parliaments, we live under virtually the same laws. We have a single armed forces, freedom of movement, rights to language are followed, The UK used that model to become the premier nation in the world, it works. It is only now with the rise of the far right that this is being challenged. We have English nationalism on the rise and therein lies the problem. The USA also lives under a similarish system, one of 50 different states with a common central government, a single currency and armed forces. It is proven the model can work as the USA is the most powerful nation in the world. Europe has prospered for 50 years under the EU/EEC it is not the finished article and there is much that can be improved but it works for the simple reason there has not been a European war of significance since 1945 and that has to count for something on a continent that has been ravaged by war for generations. Yes there can be improvements to the EU, it could be more democratic for a start, but it is a young project and it will evolve in time given the support it needs.

This is from somebody who did not vote remain, but from a person who is getting really annoyed at the misinformation being used to achieve a political end. It is something straight out of the Goebbels play book.

1/ Don't bother trying to persuade the intellectuals, just sway the undereducated lumpemproletariat.
2/ Appeal to them via emotional triggers rather than specific detailed ideas
3/ If anyone questions your lies call them unpatriotic traitors.

There are noble reasons to leave the EU and their are noble reasons to remain in the EU, it is a shame the debate has plumbed the depths it has, the nationalistic hubris and the amount of unrequited lies has distorted the debate to such an extent it has divided the country in a way the country has never been divided before.

I have to say what an excellent response. I find much of what you have written interesting and agree with some of it too you maybe surprised to hear. I will do my best to grab some time to sit down and give it the attention and full response it deserves. I will say this based upon what you have written it would be a pleasure to debate with you. total respect to you.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Why do you think he’s so undesirable?

I think he's an incompetent arsehole.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Absolutely they are but they are not entitled to murder to get it, nor are Loyalists allowed to stop it from happening via the democratic process.

Are people not allowed to vote to leave the EU?

Imagine a vote to unite Ireland winning and Parliament and MP's saying yeah but we cant agree on how it should happen so sorry.....not happening.

Ah a referencr back to the assumed simpleton argument again.

We are all stupid, so are willing to swallow the pretence that the leave campaign wasn't promising a deal, so all leave voters actually voted expecting an extreme Brexit & not a Norway style one like Farage recommended.

We are not that dumb & neither are you.

Imagine they told the voters they would vote to leave the union & come to a great deal with the Govt & be much better off, then told those who voted for it tough shit, we are leaving without one & tried to hide the reports of consequences & shut down democracy in order to hamper any opposition.

Imagine how that would go down amongst the Unionists, in particular, when they were told to just fucking lump it, like we have been told.

 

[aguero93:20]

https://www.thejournal.ie/lord-ashcroft-irish-unification-poll-4804372-Sep2019/

Poll's are swinging the other way

51% is fucking dodgy territory.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

yes we have gone on to a different topic...

Trying to regain your country from occupying forces with armed troops on the streets and murdering innocent people is a bit different than a bunch of EDL twats "wanting their country back" from destitute, terrified brown people.

And those "terrorists" who want to remain part of the UK?...Captain Mainwaring and Pike come to mind...

You're saying the UVF and the like are Dad's Army wannabees?

Also for the record, just in case anyone reads from this that I support racism via right-wing organisations, that cannot be further from the truth.

 

[Ban-jani]

I think he's an incompetent arsehole.

Fair enough. In which respect? I know my frustrations were previously on Brexit and the dealings with antisemitism but he has seemingly improved in both areas and those were my red crosses for not voting Labour previously.