Another new Brexit thread

[M18CTID]

Exactly so, for a reason. I initally drew attention to its orginator's ((#StopBrexit #Sodem AKA Mack@ianhowes1970) lack of response to questions about its provenance and then made a general point about unscrupulous care providers practices based on the evidence in its content. I contrasted this with the responsible way the NHS gave information about its arrangements in the event of temporary supply shortages. If you don't think Project Fear is the leitmotif of the Remainers efforts to kill any form of Brexit I'm not surprised - but it is nonetheless and it is largely baseless and also probably pointless since it seems we're clearly staying in.
A ball of mindless, contemptuous fury - primitive selfish rage personified. It's a pity Harold Pinter isn't still around - he could have written a play about you.

I'm not sure why that escalated the way it did. The vast majority of the population is now well aware of the various complications that could arise out of a No Deal Brexit and I don't see anything in those posts of yours disputing that. All you highlighted was the source of the letter. For the record, I did read some of the feed and I think it was confirmed that it was indeed from a private firm. I presume you also had an issue with the wording of it, citing the NHS and their more measured approach in giving their patients info relating to this. I would add that I haven't seen how the NHS have worded their own version but would be interested to see it as a comparison.

 

[west didsblue]

The laws that get set by the EU are around 15% of UK law and they are the ones that relate to membership with the EU - the standardisiation you need in a trading bloc. So we have full control of 85% of our laws and the other 15% are aligned to the rules of the EU. If we do trade deals with other countries laws will have to change to be alligned to the agreement.

By that same standard the only way to have full control of your laws is to enter no trade agreements with anyone!

This raises the point that if we end up with multiple trade deals with large countries that previously would have been via the EU, there are probably a lot more laws that would be driven by those separate deals than the 15% that are driven by our current EU relationship. In fact we will be bound by the vast majority of those 15% anyway if we want a wide ranging trade deal with the EU.
Taking back control!!

 

[Hesperus]

Like what? Allow handguns on our streets?

What sort of laws do you have in mind?

I’ve no idea where your going with this.

I understood your original comment to mean that the main problem with Mays deal, as opponents to Mays deal claim, was that we become law takers and not law makers? My point is that even with Mays deal, once the future relationship is agreed we can the diverge from EU law. Which is what the leavers want right?

 

[Hesperus]

The laws that get set by the EU are around 15% of UK law and they are the ones that relate to membership with the EU - the standardisiation you need in a trading bloc. So we have full control of 85% of our laws and the other 15% are aligned to the rules of the EU. If we do trade deals with other countries laws will have to change to be alligned to the agreement.

By that same standard the only way to have full control of your laws is to enter no trade agreements with anyone!

I agree it’s always been a flawed argument that the hard brexiters troll out. My point was though that even with Mays deal, eventually, once the future relationship is agreed even the hard brexiters get what they think is important to them. I.e. they get control of their own laws. Even though in effect we already have that from within the EU.

 

[BobKowalski]

Only until the future relationship deal is agreed. Which it would be at some point in the future. Then, we set our own rules.

Unlikely. Only three blocs make the rules, set standards etc. US, EU and China. The first two dominate and out of these the EU is more able to assert standards globally and to non EU countries (GDPR was a good example). EU policy is more consistent and not subject to the vagaries of admin change as in the US.

Basically if you want a deep and comprehensive FTA with the EU then you accept their rules and standards. The more rules you accept, the more comprehensive the FTA can be. If you want something like Japan then it will be relatively shallow. Our problem is that we are 22 miles from the EU. Include NI and we share a border so a shallow FTA won’t really cut it.

We can leave the EU but we will never escape it’s regulatory pull or resist its ability to shape our economy.

 

[Hesperus]

Unlikely. Only three blocs make the rules, set standards etc. US, EU and China. The first two dominate and out of these the EU is more able to assert standards globally and to non EU countries (GDPR was a good example). EU policy is more consistent and not subject to the vagaries of admin change as in the US.

Basically if you want a deep and comprehensive FTA with the EU then you accept their rules and standards. The more rules you accept, the more comprehensive the FTA can be. If you want something like Japan then it will be relatively shallow. Our problem is that we are 22 miles from the EU. Include NI and we share a border so a shallow FTA won’t really cut it.

We can leave the EU but we will never escape it’s regulatory pull or resist its ability to shape our economy.

Yes I agree with all of that. My original question is what is wrong with Mays deal? Blue Hef posted that it it was bad because we become law takers and not law makers. I was trying to point out that even with Mays deal once the future relationship is resolved we have what the Hard Brexiters want I.e the ability to make our own rules and laws. Even though as you point out this is bit of a fantasy.

 

[BobKowalski]

Yes I agree with all of that. My original question is what is wrong with Mays deal? Blue Hef posted that it it was bad because we become law takers and not law makers. I was trying to point out that even with Mays deal once the future relationship is resolved we have what the Hard Brexiters want I.e the ability to make our own rules and laws. Even though as you point out this is bit of a fantasy.

Fair enough.

 

[Blue Hefner]

I’ve no idea where your going with this.

I understood your original comment to mean that the main problem with Mays deal, as opponents to Mays deal claim, was that we become law takers and not law makers? My point is that even with Mays deal, once the future relationship is agreed we can the diverge from EU law. Which is what the leavers want right?

I'm not entirely sure what they want anymore.....

 

[The perfect fumble]

The twitter account has been asked who wrote the letter without response. A reasonable question.

Clearly a fake then.

Yellowhammer is probably a fake as well, take a shower tomorrow and we'll realize the last three years have all been a dream.

 

[blueinsa]

Larger percentage of Scots want to remain in the EU than Brits want to Leave.

Eh?

Percentage?

Lol, desperate stuff

 

[cibaman]

There's a group of Labour MPs headed by Stephen Kinnock who want May's deal back! So there'll be no shortage of Labour MPs, and some Tories come to think of it, who would happily campaign for a custom union, single market thingy.

Kinnock has said that he would prefer May’s Deal or Common Market 2.0 over no deal or a 2nd referendum. He’s also said that he would oppose a 2nd referendum if it were a straight choice between a soft Brexit and Remain as he believes it would be undemocratic, lead to civil unrest and prolong the agony.

Kinnock and most of the other Labour MPs who oppose a 2nd referendum are fundamentally remainers. They’re pushing soft Brexit instead of 2nd referendum because of labour leavers in their constituencies, “respecting the vote” etc. But once they lose the battle to stop a 2nd referendum then I expect that most of them will revert back to remain. I certainly don’t see many of them leading the leave campaign.

 

[blueinsa]

Yeah, imagine spouting off endlessly about "the will of the people" in that situation.

Leave win, Scottish independence didn’t.

Will of the people was respected in one ref so why not the other?

Your problem is you just want your own will respected and fuck everyone else.

That’s fair enough mate but at least admit it.

 

[robbieh]

Eh?

Percentage?

Lol, desperate stuff

EU Referendum
Leave 1,018,322
Remain 1,661,191

Independence Referendum
Yes 1,617,989
No 2,001,926

The above are figures you used to suggest that the idea that Scots want to stay in the EU is bogus.

You even said over a million scots voted to Leave. But way more voted to remain so as you might say "the Will of the People" north of the border is Remain, a much more clear cut situation than in the UK as a whole.

Not desperation, just a few statistics to challenge your use of words.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Kinnock has said that he would prefer May’s Deal or Common Market 2.0 over no deal or a 2nd referendum. He’s also said that he would oppose a 2nd referendum if it were a straight choice between a soft Brexit and Remain as he believes it would be undemocratic, lead to civil unrest and prolong the agony.

Kinnock and most of the other Labour MPs who oppose a 2nd referendum are fundamentally remainers. They’re pushing soft Brexit instead of 2nd referendum because of labour leavers in their constituencies, “respecting the vote” etc. But once they lose the battle to stop a 2nd referendum then I expect that most of them will revert back to remain. I certainly don’t see many of them leading the leave campaign.

Even if you're right and I'm a bit sceptical, there are enough leavers in Labour, and even a few wet Tories, to mount a credible Norway type leave campaign.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Leave win, Scottish independence didn’t.

Will of the people was respected in one ref so why not the other?

Your problem is you just want your own will respected and fuck everyone else.

That’s fair enough mate but at least admit it.

This is not a football match, mate. The days of “we won you lost” are behind us now the lies have emerged.

I don’t respect the referendum or the will of Michael Gove, Farage, Tommy Robinson or the Leave loons on this thread. Not one single fucking bit. The whole thing is a national embarrassment and I feel the same respect for the opinions of you lot as if you’d come around in the night, put all my windows in and stood there arrogantly telling me my house was too hot.

So yes, you’re right. Fuck you all.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

I meant ‘set our own laws’. In reply to your earlier comment.

You're aware that EU states are allowed to make their own laws right?

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

EU Referendum
Leave 1,018,322
Remain 1,661,191

Independence Referendum
Yes 1,617,989
No 2,001,926

The above are figures you used to suggest that the idea that Scots want to stay in the EU is bogus.

You even said over a million scots voted to Leave. But way more voted to remain so as you might say "the Will of the People" north of the border is Remain, a much more clear cut situation than in the UK as a whole.

Not desperation, just a few statistics to challenge your use of words.

I believe you're bringing facts into the equation here. That's not the done thing I'm afraid

 

[blueinsa]

EU Referendum
Leave 1,018,322
Remain 1,661,191

Independence Referendum
Yes 1,617,989
No 2,001,926

The above are figures you used to suggest that the idea that Scots want to stay in the EU is bogus.

You even said over a million scots voted to Leave. But way more voted to remain so as you might say "the Will of the People" north of the border is Remain, a much more clear cut situation than in the UK as a whole.

Not desperation, just a few statistics to challenge your use of words.

So what?

Scottish independence lost yet all you hear is how they all want to leave the union.

Over 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU yet all you hear is how they all want to remain.

That was my point in reply to someone claiming that the whole of Scotland wants to remain.

No they do not!

 

[blueinsa]

This is not a football match, mate. The days of “we won you lost” are behind us now the lies have emerged.

I don’t respect the referendum or the will of Michael Gove, Farage, Tommy Robinson or the Leave loons on this thread. Not one single fucking bit. The whole thing is a national embarrassment and I feel the same respect for the opinions of you lot as if you’d come around in the night, put all my windows in and stood there arrogantly telling me my house was too hot.

So yes, you’re right. Fuck you all.

Yeah Dave so long as you win.

Fuck you all back lol

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Even if you're right and I'm a bit sceptical, there are enough leavers in Labour, and even a few wet Tories, to mount a credible Norway type leave campaign.

I think this is part of the problem with brexit. Leavers can be split into two camps:

1, rationale leavers, those that understand the issues (or some of the issues) but also want to respect the vote. They will want a compromise to minimise the damage and accept only a soft form of brexit will work.
2, ardent leavers, those unwilling to listen to any evidenced based assessment of the implications and want the simplest extraction of ourselves from the EU irrespective of the consequences.

The problem is that there is not the political will to drive either forward as they are very very different outcomes. Neither is sustainable and neither has any competent political force driving it.