Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

Yet we are. And many of us want that same sort of relationship with the EU, to not be politically associated as a "member".

Then don’t.

But don’t say that not being in the Single Market or Customs Union is ‘essential to leaving’. It isn’t.

 

[Metal Biker]

Then don’t.

But don’t say that not being in the Single Market or Customs Union is ‘essential to leaving’. It isn’t.

Didn;t say Single Market, I said Customs Union.

And being out of the CU is essentially what a leavers want to see concluded. We're divided on Single Market access, but ending CU is one of the key reasons for establishing leave.

It's always fun to have someone who didn;t vote leave, doesn't support leave, telling a leaver what they would constitute as leaving the EU.

 

[hgblue]

Yeah but referendums are bad and people are too stupid to make the right choice.

So let's have just ONE MORE, under the EXACT SAME PERAMETERS, with the EXACT SAME PEOPLE involved in voting, and then we'll scrap referendums because they're stupid and the public are too dumb to realise the intricacies.

How about, just to be sure, there's only one option on the ballot paper too. ;)

Answer me this question, who will campaign for the Leave side in this rigged referendum?

 

[waspish]

TO overturn the initial vote.

A second ref is meant to decide whether we support a deal or no deal, but remainers who refuse to compromise, just want to overturn it.

So when corbyn is stand PM wto of the table then they’ll be a referendum, first though it be discussed in Parliament on what questions will be asked so it be Mays deal or remain out if them 2 remain all day long.

 

[west didsblue]

Yes, if it means not being a member of the EU.

We'd also be paying in considerably, considerably less, as the other non-EU members do.

I wouldn’t say considerably less. Maybe not much less at all depending on a number of difficult to quantify factors.
https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-eu-payments/

 

[Metal Biker]

So when corbyn is stand PM wto of the table then they’ll be a referendum, first though it be discussed in Parliament on what questions will be asked so it be Mays deal or remain out if them 2 remain all day long.

Which, if those are the options, is seen by many leavers as a trap.

We'd have to see what Corbyn's deal would be and given a choice of May's Deal or Corbyn's deal. Both remaining and no deal are off the table in a second ref.

 

[joe123]

Answer me this question, who will campaign for the Leave side in this rigged referendum?

At least it would mean people having to campaign for the method of leave they actually want

 

[Metal Biker]

I wouldn’t say considerably less. Maybe not much less at all depending on a number of difficult to quantify factors.
https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-eu-payments/

Turkey's payments are?

 

[west didsblue]

Turkey's payments are?

No idea but Turkey aren’t in the Single Market.

 

[Metal Biker]

Answer me this question, who will campaign for the Leave side in this rigged referendum?

Soubry, Lammy, Thornberry, Swinson and Clarke.

 

[BrianW]

Again, same argument made for General Elections. Most people don't read their own parties manifestos, let alone EVERY single manifesto pledges of EVERY single party. They don't know the names of their MP's half the time, they just vote "for Labour" or "for Tories". You don't think being a member of a political union is important enough for the citizenry to voice their opinion on it?

Should Scotland and Scottish people just "be quiet", for example? Are we citizens of a sovereign nation with a voice or resorting back to serfdom? If some of us don't wish to be part of a union, any union, we should be consulted occassionally. It's up to Parliament to decide whether to act on the information collected.

Can I be frank? I do not think the general population of the UK are sufficiently educated (or indeed sufficiently interested in doing actual research) to take complicated decisions of the type you are referring to. It's that simple.

We are a Parliamentary democracy. We pay people (quite a lot of people) quite handsomely to do the complex and detailed stuff that is necessarily behind sensible decisions on this matter. In my view, they should do that job. That is what they are paid for.

So, in the case of Scotland, if a majority of Scottish MPs are SNP and take the view that Scotland should be independent - fine.
Similarly, in the case of the UK, if the majority of MPs support Brexit - fine.
However, I do stress I would want PR voting established first, because at present a minority can elect a majority, which is plain wrong.

To draw an analogy, referenda are like asking the crowd to pick the team instead of Pep. The only difference is that in that case (picking the team) it wouldn't really matter. So I would be much happier to go for that (ridiculous though it would be!) than go for a vote on membership of the EU, or NATO, or the UN, or whether we should maintain diplomatic relations with Russia, or the 1001 other complex things you could potentially have referenda on.

 

[BobKowalski]

Didn;t say Single Market, I said Customs Union.

And being out of the CU is essentially what a leavers want to see concluded. We're divided on Single Market access, but ending CU is one of the key reasons for establishing leave.

It's always fun to have someone who didn;t vote leave, doesn't support leave, telling a leaver what they would constitute as leaving the EU.

I know. Which is why I said ‘or’ in my reply.

I am not interested in what flavour of ‘leave’ you or anyone else wants to see. The referendum question said to leave the EU. It’s a binary question. You are either an EU member or you are not and membership is not determined by Single Market or Customs Union participation. If it did then Turkey, Switzerland and Norway would be EU members. These countries are not EU members.

 

[Metal Biker]

No idea but Turkey aren’t in the Single Market.

Something I don't advocate leaving.

The EU budget is funded from three main sources:

• Member State contributions, based on a percentage of their Gross National Income
  
  
• Import duties on goods entering from outside the EU
  
  
• A percentage of each Member State’s national VAT rate
  

 

[Ban-jani]

It's not, so there's no point holding one other than gauging public opinion, which is precisely what the first one was meant to be, and the Tories ran with it.

Staying in the Customs Union prohibits us doing trade deals with non-EU associated partners, independently. It was a key issue of leaving. EFTA allows us the option to continue trade, respect the GFA and trade independently of the EU as a non-member with FTA's already agreed with our EFTA partners (who are also independent of each other as the EFTA does not seek to form a customs union)

You know I’ll take EFTA, right now I’ll snap your hand off but the extremists don’t want that and will block it.

Well the 2nd ref would need a specific definition of leaving or the chance to go to a 3rd ref where the only options are leave ones and the public chooses from there.

 

[Metal Biker]

Can I be frank? I do not think the general population of the UK are sufficiently educated (or indeed sufficiently interested in doing actual research) to take complicated decisions of the type you are referring to. It's that simple.

We are a Parliamentary democracy. We pay people (quite a lot of people) quite handsomely to do the complex and detailed stuff that is necessarily behind sensible decisions on this matter. In my view, they should do that job. That is what they are paid for.

So, in the case of Scotland, if a majority of Scottish MPs are SNP and take the view that Scotland should be independent - fine.
Similarly, in the case of the UK, if the majority of MPs support Brexit - fine.
However, I do stress I would want PR voting established first, because at present a minority can elect a majority, which is plain wrong.

To draw an analogy, referenda are like asking the crowd to pick the team instead of Pep. The only difference is that in that case (picking the team) it wouldn't really matter. So I would be much happier to go for that (ridiculous though it would be!) than go for a vote on membership of the EU, or NATO, or the UN, or whether we should maintain diplomatic relations with Russia, or the 1001 other complex things you could potentially have referenda on.

And those Scottish civilians must just go along with what those Scottish MP's decide and not have their voice of opposition heard?

Nah, just wait until the next GE where you can vote them out... still doesn't change the fact that Scotland would have left the UK union by that point, against the will of many of it's citizens.

A referendum asking to pick the team means nothing. The decision still lies with the manager, doesn't it. Referendums aren't legally binding unless decided. This one wasn;t either. This chaos has come about the Tories enacting the ref decision as "policy" without knowing what to do. It's not the referendum that caused the issue.

 

[Metal Biker]

You know I’ll take EFTA, right now I’ll snap your hand off but the extremists don’t want that and will block it.

Well the 2nd ref would need a specific definition of leaving or the chance to go to a 3rd ref where the only options are leave ones and the public chooses from there.

But when the compromisers outnumber the extremists...

We need remainer extremists to start backing EFTA as well. They're just as instrumental in prolonguing the chaos as the ERG.

 

[Metal Biker]

Honestly though, does anyone seriously think we can stay in the EU after three years of this shit?

We've got Eurosceptics representing the UK in the EuroParl and they'll be there for the next 5 years. One can only imagine the tensions they would stir up or that would arise from not leaving or worse, just overturning the decision. Compromising on how we leave is the only way forward in my eyes.

 

[Metal Biker]

Open question for remainers;

Since you seem to know what would constitute the UK leaving the EU would entail, would you all mind posting, the exact minimum, of what conditions that would be, that would technically honour the concept of leaving the European Union (what would end, what institutions would cease etc)?

Thanks.

 

[blueparrot]

Can I be frank? I do not think the general population of the UK are sufficiently educated (or indeed sufficiently interested in doing actual research) to take complicated decisions of the type you are referring to. It's that simple.

We are a Parliamentary democracy. We pay people (quite a lot of people) quite handsomely to do the complex and detailed stuff that is necessarily behind sensible decisions on this matter. In my view, they should do that job. That is what they are paid for.

So, in the case of Scotland, if a majority of Scottish MPs are SNP and take the view that Scotland should be independent - fine.
Similarly, in the case of the UK, if the majority of MPs support Brexit - fine.
However, I do stress I would want PR voting established first, because at present a minority can elect a majority, which is plain wrong.

To draw an analogy, referenda are like asking the crowd to pick the team instead of Pep. The only difference is that in that case (picking the team) it wouldn't really matter. So I would be much happier to go for that (ridiculous though it would be!) than go for a vote on membership of the EU, or NATO, or the UN, or whether we should maintain diplomatic relations with Russia, or the 1001 other complex things you could potentially have referenda on.

In the case of Scotland there is PR and there has only been once when the SNP has had a clear majority, which is when they had the referendum. At he moment they are a minority government governing with Green support. So if they campaigned on a Independent ticket chances are they would need a second party winning enough seats also on an independence ticket to be able to implement independence under the non referendum route you suggest. The SNP alone are unlikely to be able to do it unilateraly.

 

[waspish]

Which, if those are the options, is seen by many leavers as a trap.

We'd have to see what Corbyn's deal would be and given a choice of May's Deal or Corbyn's deal. Both remaining and no deal are off the table in a second ref.

Any rehashed deal will be worse then staying in the eu.