So we need to come to a compromise, don't we. As we've* agreed this is the best way forward.
*basis this on recent, previous exchanges about compromising between us both
Sounds more like the issue is with Parliamentarians unable to agree, than on the concept of referendums itself.I mean, that’s a horrific take on what I said, completely devoid of the point.
You’re refusing to see that some parliamentarians want EFTA like you and some only want no deal, nothing will get a majority because leave means so many different things and therefore it was the referendum and specifically the vagueness of the question that has landed us in this mess - I blame Cameron for that.
Thinking that unless we have referendums we have no voice kind of shows the ignorance to UK democracy.
I was rather hoping my choice of phrase would be less explicitly appreciated.
Leaving the customs union (to an extent) is essential to leaving. There's no workaround on that.Yes but the trouble is we’re not deciding the direction the country goes in.
I actually think a better Customs arrangement to May’s deal could gain a majority but unfortunately Johnson is being forced to take us out of Customs Union by his own party.
Again, same argument made for General Elections. Most people don't read their own parties manifestos, let alone EVERY single manifesto pledges of EVERY single party. They don't know the names of their MP's half the time, they just vote "for Labour" or "for Tories". You don't think being a member of a political union is important enough for the citizenry to voice their opinion on it?I suspect we could have had a "consensus" Brexit months ago, and most of the country would have accepted it. But that was not "Brexity" enough for a minority, the likes of the ERG. Hence we are where we are, and we are either going to get an extreme form of Brexit, quite possibly "no deal" or Brexit will be cancelled. And either will piss off at least a very substantial majority of the public. That's where we are.
Referenda should never, ever, be offered for complex issues like this. If you want one to name a ship or decide what colour dress the Queen should wear, or even what the National Anthem should be - fine. These are matters everyone can understand and it doesn't actually matter anyway. Membership of the EU is so complex I doubt 2% of the population fully understand the implications. You might as well offer a vote on how to operate on someone's brain.
Canada and Japan managed what?Leaving the customs union (to an extent) is essential to leaving. There's no workaround on that.
Staying in the Common Market, accepting the Four Freedoms, is a compromise i'm willing to accept. Canada and Japan both managed it. We must be able to conduct trade deals with partners freely, outside of the EU, once we leave.
Sounds more like the issue is with Parliamentarians unable to agree, than on the concept of referendums itself.
Are you against a people's vote, then?
Leaving the customs union (to an extent) is essential to leaving. There's no workaround on that.
Staying in the Common Market, accepting the Four Freedoms, is a compromise i'm willing to accept. Canada and Japan both managed it. We must be able to conduct trade deals with partners freely, outside of the EU, once we leave.
But there is nothing to suggest that the public demand or holds another on the same arguments being made to hold a second one. The first was not respected by all, why would the second mean an end to the discussion?Parliamentarians are expected to disagree, that’s the whole idea of politics.
The issue is very much the vagueness of the question and the lack of plan from Cameron once the referendum result was in.
And the fact that direct democracy doesn’t work well, generally speaking, in a representative democracy.
This is my entire point and the evidence is with me.
We’ve been over the 2nd referendum and I’ve told you that because this mess was caused by an in/out public vote, it needs another one to close it, if there isn’t a way through Parliament.
Last case scenario, as I said before.
I would however happily accept a deal that gave us access to the European markets and upheld the GFA.
Yet we are. And many of us want that same sort of relationship with the EU, to not be politically associated as a "member".It isn’t. Turkey is in a Customs Union with the EU but not the Single Market. Norway and Switzerland are in the Single Market but not in a Customs Union. None of these three countries are in the EU.
You do realise that you want to be an EU rule taker rather than a rule maker don’t you?Yet we are. And many of us want that same sort of relationship with the EU, to not be politically associated as a "member".
But there is nothing to suggest that the public demand or holds another on the same arguments being made to hold a second one. The first was not respected by all, why would the second mean an end to the discussion?
I also want access to the European markets and to respect and uphold the GFA, but also, being free of the political aspect of the EU (no more MEP's) free to trade with global partners outside the EU's own partners, and form alliances or even new unions beyond if we so desire. Those are some of the key aspects of leave that must be upheld. End political association, free to trade outside of Europe with partners the EU has not yet established with.
Page after page about how shit referendums are and the solution proposed is......drumroll, wait for it because it’s a doozy.......another referendum. Not just another in/out referendum, oh no, this time we’re going to rig it and have Remain against a really shit deal that most Leavers hate. Oh, and this time we really will respect the outcome, honest. This will bring the country back together again, how could it possibly fail.But there is nothing to suggest that the public demand or holds another on the same arguments being made to hold a second one. The first was not respected by all, why would the second mean an end to the discussion?
I also want access to the European markets and to respect and uphold the GFA, but also, being free of the political aspect of the EU (no more MEP's) free to trade with global partners outside the EU's own partners, and form alliances or even new unions beyond if we so desire. Those are some of the key aspects of leave that must be upheld. End political association, free to trade outside of Europe with partners the EU has not yet established with.
Yes, if it means not being a member of the EU.You do realise that you want to be an EU rule taker rather than a rule maker don’t you?
And we’d still have to pay in although we wouldn’t be members.
Yeah but referendums are bad and people are too stupid to make the right choice.Page after about how shit referendums are and the solution proposed is......drumroll, wait for it because it’s a doozy.......another referendum. Not just another in/out referendum, oh no, this time we’re going to rig it and have Remain against a really shit deal that most Leavers hate. Oh, and this time we really will respect the outcome, honest. This will bring the country back together again, how could it possibly fail.
You're right, I think it was a stupid idea and anyone who thinks otherwise must be stupid. Is that condescending enough for you? Jeez "condescending"????! Touchy or what.
And regards the "must always be held accountable" line, they are. Every 5 years at least.
You haven't in any way justified how it can make sense to ask people ill-equipped to decide on a complex matter, what we should do regards said complex matter. It is illogical, pointless and as we have seen, extremely dangerous to seek guidance from those unable to give it.
It's not, so there's no point holding one other than gauging public opinion, which is precisely what the first one was meant to be, and the Tories ran with it.Well because this time it’d need to be legally binding (if that’s possible?) and have a clear leave option on the table, not just a generic leave, that nobody can agree on a definition of.
You have specifically said Customs Union isn’t really leaving but it is, others say EFTA wouldn’t be leaving, it is.
TO overturn the initial vote.Curious if we did have another referendum why would remain be on it? 80% of Parliament want a deal so shouldn't it be May’s rehashed deal or leave again?