Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

Based on what?

Hope. It’s pretty much all the Tories have left. Personally I’m not even sure the sex pest will last the week let alone be around to present some shiny new deal.

 

[Vic]

Hahaha you'd think so!

I'm still very much a Remainer. A couple of things have changed my perspective over the past couple of months however:

1. The realisation that this shit is never going away until we get it done. It's a bit like someone with an injured leg (bear with me!) who has constant pain with it. Of course they want it to get better and the last thing they want is having it amputated. But there comes a point where you just have to face up to it and the leg has to go.

2. The unique set of circumstances we find ourselves in, means for the first time I am now genuinely concerned about the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn being in No. 10. Of course he is toxic as are the ludicrous Labour policies such as scrapping private schools. So in "normal" times he could not possibly win. But these are not normal times. if accepting we must leave the EU is the price to keep Corbyn out, then that's a price I pay willingly.

Referendum question:

What should happen to your leg? Remain attached or leave it in the operating room?

 

[west didsblue]

No I think he's a bit of a buffoon actually. I've said so repeatedly.

I used to think he was just a bit of a buffoon but over the last three years have come to realise that he is an egomaniac who will say and do literally anything to get what he wants. And that thing he wants is the position of power he currently has and wants to keep for as long as possible. Nothing else matters. Even his family think the same judging by the actions of his siblings.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Hahaha you'd think so!

I'm still very much a Remainer. A couple of things have changed my perspective over the past couple of months however:

1. The realisation that this shit is never going away until we get it done. It's a bit like someone with an injured leg (bear with me!) who has constant pain with it. Of course they want it to get better and the last thing they want is having it amputated. But there comes a point where you just have to face up to it and the leg has to go.

2. The unique set of circumstances we find ourselves in, means for the first time I am now genuinely concerned about the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn being in No. 10. Of course he is toxic as are the ludicrous Labour policies such as scrapping private schools. So in "normal" timeshe could not possibly win. But these are not normal times. if accepting we must leave the EU is the price to keep Corbyn out, then that's a price I pay willingly.

Please seek help....


Johnson and the rest of the Tory Party are the toxic ones ... failing to develop ANY policies that actually help and aid the electorate .. instead constantly lining the pockets of themselves and their corporate masters. Supported by a press that fails to report what they are doing


If Jeremy Corbyn had been accused of Corruption / groping two women and lying to the Queen we would've had a Newsight double edition and Question time back to back last night


See how it works?

 

[mcfc1632]

This viable walk away option you mention just doesn’t exist. A no deal brexit would hurt the UK much, much more than it would hurt the EU. So why would they see it as a threat? Yes it will hurt them but they are much better equipped than we are to absorb it.

It’s just not a viable threat.

I have been saying this since 2016

had preparations started then......

 

[Chippy_boy]

The liar said it was a million to one that we would not leave without a deal. I bet that's not what you mean by a strong chance. But then he was lying.

Have you just woken up from a coma? It would seem so.

Since he made that statement, parlisment has completely undermined our negotiating position. Surely you noticed???

 

[Ban-jani]

I have been saying this since 2016

had preparations started then......

What preparations could make up for a free trade deal that covers 60% of our exports?

And that’s not including the deals we have elsewhere through the EU.

 

[west didsblue]

Have you just woken up from a coma? It would seem so.

Since he made that statement, parlisment has completely undermined our negotiating position. Surely you noticed???

We didn’t have a real negotiating position. Surely you realised that the No Deal threat was a sham that is much worse for us than the EU, and is what his ERG backers actually want. That’s why he hates the Benn bill, because it stops him delivering what his sister said he’s been paid to deliver.
You need to wake up and smell the corruption at the top of your beloved Tory Party.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Based on what?

Based on three things:

1. The EU would rather we stayed, but if not, then they'd much rather we leave with a deal than with none. So whilst there's just a whiff of a threat of us leaving with no deal - either by Johnson doing something devious to outmanoeuvre parlisment or by winning a GE and getting a mandate for it, then we still have a tiny bit of leverage. Not as much as if the ludicrous Benn legislation had not been passed of course, but a bit.

2. The EU are also sick of this dragging on. It's not doing anything for growth across the EU with everything in limbo.

3. Johnson probably figures his chances of winning a GE go down significantly unless he gets us out by October 31st. So he'll be looking for whatever small compromise he can get from the EU that he can "sell' to parlisment. I think the May deal with some kind of backstop not called a backstop and with words exposing how the UK could cancel it, will be back on the table.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We didn’t have a real negotiating position. Surely you realised that the No Deal threat was a sham that is much worse for us than the EU, and is what his ERG backers actually want. That’s why he hates the Benn bill, because it stops him delivering what his sister said he’s been paid to deliver.
You need to wake up and smell the corruption at the top of your beloved Tory Party.

Right oh.

EDIT, and BTW why did "his ERG backers" such as JRM vote FOR the May deal then?

You need to stop with the conspiracy theories mate, it's not doing anything for your peace of mind.

 

[BobKowalski]

Have you just woken up from a coma? It would seem so.

Since he made that statement, parlisment has completely undermined our negotiating position. Surely you noticed???

No. Mainly because it didn’t. Delivering Brexit is a legal and technical process. Shouting threats isn’t going to move anyone. No deal doesn’t solve or deliver Brexit nor does it make it go away. Developed countries have Treaty based trade arrangements and agreements with their neighbours. Lapsing all of ours in a hissy fit just means we will have to go back to the negotiating table later. Treaty arrangements govern how we move chemicals to how we can take Flopsy the dog on holiday with us. That’s just the reality. Reality is a bitch.

 

[Vic]

Have you just woken up from a coma? It would seem so.

Since he made that statement, parlisment has completely undermined our negotiating position. Surely you noticed???

We had a negotiating position?

 

[BobKowalski]

Sajid Javid says publishing Brexit negotiating proposals would be a “ridiculous” tactic. May tried this for nearly two years and it got us nowhere. You have to build domestic consensus in an international negotiation. If you don’t have consensus them nothing you agree will last. We resolutely refuse to learn anything. Quite bizarre.

 

[cibaman]

3. Johnson probably figures his chances of winning a GE go down significantly unless he gets us out by October 31st. So he'll be looking for whatever small compromise he can get from the EU that he can "sell' to parlisment. I think the May deal with some kind of backstop not called a backstop and with words exposing how the UK could cancel it, will be back on the table.

Apparently Comres have the Bxp on 13%. But half of those say they would switch to the tories if we’re out by Halloween. At the same time a similar number of those currently saying they’ll vote Tory say they’ll switch to the Bxp if we’re not out by Halloween.

That’s quite a swing.

 

[BobKowalski]

We had a negotiating position?

More a series of demands. A bus to the airport. A fully fuelled plane to a destination to be revealed when we have cleared EU airspace. Pizzas for the hostages and insulin for the diabetic kid.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No. Mainly because it didn’t. Delivering Brexit is a legal and technical process. Shouting threats isn’t going to move anyone. No deal doesn’t solve or deliver Brexit nor does it make it go away. Developed countries have Treaty based trade arrangements and agreements with their neighbours. Lapsing all of ours in a hissy fit just means we will have to go back to the negotiating table later. Treaty arrangements govern how we move chemicals to how we can take Flopsy the dog on holiday with us. That’s just the reality. Reality is a bitch.

Bob I am sorry but you are not thinking clearly here.

Of course a no deal Brexit hurts the UK more than the EU, but you cannot surely be arguing it would not hurt the EU. I know you're not arguing that because you are sensible and informed. A no deal Brexit hurts the EU and they do not want it.

And therefore it is unassailable logic that whilst the possibility of a no deal Brexit exists, then the EU might be more tempted to provide us with slightly better deal terms in order to avoid that eventuality. But as soon as there is no possibility of a no deal Brexit, all incentive for the EU to offer improved terms goes away. In fact they are incentivising to NOT offer better terms since that then would be encouraging us to leave, rather than encouraging us to stay. The Benn legislation was truly idiotic, unless it's sole objective was to kill Brexit and maybe it was.

This is not a Tory vs Labour, Brexit vs Remain, Right vs Left argument. It is simply logical fact.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We had a negotiating position?

We did have, yes.

And if you don't believe me, then consider the EU's stance on the Brexit terms available.

June: This is the only deal on offer, no changes can be contemplated, all the negotiators have gone home.

<Johson takes over, and threatens leaving October 31st come what may>

July/August: We're open to any and all suggestions and proposals.

Strange behaviour if we're to believe the threat of no deal had no effect.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I really cannot be bothered trawling through posts and if you have never suggested or alluded to such I am more than happy to retract and apologise however I have clear recollection of you saying things to that effect indeed aimed at myself on one occasion. If I am wrong then I am happy to stand corrected.

All the same even to suggest that the current Tory are ultra right is rubbish and that is coming from someone who loathes them and has never voted for them. Boris and his cronies wish to leave the EU and that is something by a whisker I agree with them on....that however falls a bloody long way short of me having even the tiniest inclination of voting for them.

As for mrs T I had to be removed from an aircraft hangar to avoid me at the very least giving her a gob full and quite possibly strangling the malevelant old bat.....

Mrs Thatch, monsterous as she was, would not have allowed the conduct of this shower & would not need a special debate, to try & find out if she would obey the will of Parliament. These people are different.

The people I have accused of racism, are Nigel Farage & his ilk & without their vote, we wouldn't be going through this.
Farage is the same as this bunch of liars & scoundrels currently in charge of our country.

They are between them, pushing the boundaries so that conduct which was considered unacceptable, becomes acceptable.

They aren't doing it, in order to create a more Liberal society.

 

[Neville Kneville]

We did have, yes.

And if you don't believe me, then consider the EU's stance on the Brexit terms available.

June: This is the only deal on offer, no changes can be contemplated, all the negotiators have gone home.

<Johson takes over, and threatens leaving October 31st come what may>

July/August: We're open to any and all suggestions and proposals.

Strange behaviour if we're to believe the threat of no deal had no effect.

They have always been open, to a solution for the Irish border.

They are not 'open' to any concessions, on anything & have reiterated that in these so called 'talks'.

If we want to give them more & take less, I'm pretty sure they'll have no problem accepting it.

 

[Rascal]

Accusing all and sundry of racism and so on account of voting leave seems to have much in common with the far left does it not?

Us on the far left generally don't accuse, I know i don't. its the twitterati #FBFE mob, and they hate the left and Corbyn as much as they hate Brexit.

This whole Brexit fiasco has meant people are too eager to put others into boxes. I know, I just did it with the #FBFE mob.