Understand where you are coming from fully, but my major concern with that vote would be the number of people who believe no deal means remain.
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Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
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And tip several of the leading EU nations into recessionThen they send Ireland to economic oblivion with us.
The ideologues might consider that worthwhile to protect their dream - the leaders of those countries will not
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
This is why the only answer is another referendum. The question would be very simple with no room for ambiguity:
Leave the EU with no deal or remain in the EU?
But 'no deal' is itself a con job, as there has to be a deal, it's just about when that deal happens, after the period of the withdrawal agreement. So again nobody would know what the outcome of their vote is.
No deal just represents a dreadful dark period of unknown length, whilst the same people argue about the actual deal.
The opposition parties could quickly agree a deal with the EU, which could solve the border problem.
Then that could be put to the people.
It may be that leavers decide they would prefer a 'soft' Brexit to no Brexit.
I am just commenting on what is likely to happen given the circumstances of October 2019This just creates a long drawn out period of uncertainty. Like BRINO but with a set date where it all crashes down and we get no deal.
Why would the EU sign up for a long drawn out no deal scenario. The issue is simple - solve the NI/ROI border now or accept it can't be solved and make your choice. Leave and implement a border, or remain and leave it as it is. The same black or white issue that was a factor in 2016 but was dismissed as it would be solved as part of the unicorn deal.
I'm all for making the choice again as we all know what is really on offer now. A very different proposition to 2016.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
And tip several of the leading EU nations into recession
The ideologues might consider that worthwhile to protect their dream - the leaders of those countries will not
And if you are wrong ?
If it gets him to an election and he is returned with a majority he will consider it worthwhileIt's the ultimate in cynical politics, and it is this cynical politics which has landed us deep in the shit. People will believe his shite and we end up deeper and deeper in the smelly brown stuff.
If he achieves that and delivers a genuine Leave outcome I will consider it worthwhile - he can go fuck himself then
Fixed that.You emphasise well that there are in the main only 3 of us left - it shows how effective reality has been.
The Light Was Yellow Sir
Well-Known Member
If we ever leave with a deal, Farage and his mates will never be satisfied and will be campaigning for a ‘proper Brexit’ whatever the outcome.But 'no deal' is itself a con job, as there has to be a deal, it's just about when that deal happens, after the period of the withdrawal agreement. So again nobody would know what the outcome of their vote is.
No deal just represents a dreadful dark period of unknown length, whilst the same people argue about the actual deal.
The opposition parties could quickly agree a deal with the EU, which could solve the border problem.
Then that could be put to the people.
It may be that leavers decide they would prefer a 'soft' Brexit to no Brexit.
What you could do is make it so people had some skin in the game. Vote leave and, if it’s shit, you pay more tax, get less benefits and a smaller pension.
Gareth Barry Conlon
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I am just commenting on what is likely to happen given the circumstances of October 2019
Well it's not likely to happen.
The EU are not going to set a binary date where the backstop would fall away and the RoI are left in the shit. We either sign up to a deal that protects the GFA i.e. the WA with its unfettered backstop or we accept that we have fu@k'd the GFA and leave with no deal. The EU are only holding us to a commitment that we made - to solve the Irish border.
I just simply disagree and (of course) believe I have the right of it.And that right there is the problem. These duplicitous other parties are our own side. Labour, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Remainers. We have to get a consensus or this will not work. Brexit will not work. Trying to ram home a Brexit that is substantially opposed by other home nations or at the expense of peace in Ireland or the good of the economy as a whole will not have any lasting legitimacy. Brexit is a process that has to have people willing (or at least not hostile to) to get on board with, not ‘something to get done no matter what’.
Johnson banging on right now about Parliament or dark forces or predicting riots is talking through his arse because that sort of talk is the opposite of what needs to be said to get Brexit done. Every word he utters just hardens opposition.
in late 2019 the duplicitous other parties - Labour, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Remainers - will make no effort to come to an agreement.
Unfortunate as it is - the only outcome that delivers Brexit is by taking us out and then fixing things.
Ha - sorry - I come from the standpoint that May's deal is - from the POV of a strong Leave supporter - such a bad deal that it can have no standing in the here and now of October 2019 - it is that bad a deal that revoking A50 is preferable to May's deal.
Out of interest why was Mays deal such a bad deal? People keep saying this but don’t give the reasons?
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
If we ever leave with a deal, Farage and his mates will never be satisfied and will be campaigning for a ‘proper Brexit’ whatever the outcome.
What you could do is make it so people had some skin in the game. Vote leave and, if it’s shit, you pay more tax, get less benefits and a smaller pension.
Haha.
We leave without a deal - but that will not happen - if it does - well it doesAnd if they don't ?
For the vast majority of Conservative support Brexit has Primacy - so the answer is obviousI really do feel the issue of the Irish border is being overlooked with no deal, it's going to be an incredible problem if this isn't resolved.
I'm not sure if this government care though which is somewhat disheartening
Its already been mentioned quite a few times on this threadIf the EU were to agree to limit the time of the backstop then that means there is a solution in the pipeline, for the Irish border, otherwise they can't replace the backstop without a border appearing. Even if the EU are desperate to get rid of it, they can't currently do it without a solution being in the offing.
What solution could that be ?
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
We leave without a deal - but that will not happen - if it does - well it does
And then of course, the real argument would begin, with the same people fighting tooth & nail, to get deals on everything, with Europe.
Do you think that situation is better, than not leaving ?
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Its already been mentioned quite a few times on this thread
I missed it.
What would be the solution ?
Then I will admit to being wrong (but I won't be)And if you are wrong ?
And at least able to take comfort from the outcome that we have left the EU
HmmmmWell it's not likely to happen.
The EU are not going to set a binary date where the backstop would fall away and the RoI are left in the shit. We either sign up to a deal that protects the GFA i.e. the WA with its unfettered backstop or we accept that we have fu@k'd the GFA and leave with no deal. The EU are only holding us to a commitment that we made - to solve the Irish border.
You sound so sure
I think that you are wrong
I
I
inbetween
Guest
But 'no deal' is itself a con job, as there has to be a deal, it's just about when that deal happens, after the period of the withdrawal agreement. So again nobody would know what the outcome of their vote is.
No deal just represents a dreadful dark period of unknown length, whilst the same people argue about the actual deal.
The opposition parties could quickly agree a deal with the EU, which could solve the border problem.
Then that could be put to the people.
It may be that leavers decide they would prefer a 'soft' Brexit to no Brexit.
How?
By 'agree a deal' do you mean agree a new deal which essentially keeps us in the EU whilst losing some of the benefits of remaining plus all of the benefits of leaving?
Is this what Labour meant by negotiating a deal that they would vote against because who the hell would vote for it?
This again is all under the assumption that the EU will extend and extend otherwise it won't matter.
How can we compromise for remain, keep the free border and tick most of the leave wishlist? EFTA.
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