Another new Brexit thread

[Neville Kneville]

A point you have made over and over without any substance.

We all get it. It is the reason I think we should remain and retain our ability to have a voice in the rule making and a veto at the highest level.

I'm not sure that you understand that even if we leave on a no deal a significant amount of our trade will still be subject to the same EU regulation and the same potential detrimental impact that changes will be made without our involvement applies. The issue of the backstop applies to some extent with any form of brexit. The EU will change the regulatory environment over time to suit them and we will have no way of stopping them. Outside of the WA and the EU we wont be bound by it but that is an incredibly naive view - it ignores all the UK centered economic activity that happens across Europe.

They will also likely use a carrot & stick method, to erode our 'solidarity' as a non EU country.

 

[BobKowalski]

Helpful graphic on the sex pest’s border proposals

 

[stonerblue]

You emphasise well that there are in the main only 3 of us left - it shows how effective the pack have been.

The rest have had the good sense to recognise that these threads will never be allowed by the pack to be a place where debate can occur.

The pack simply need to shout down any Leave opinions and are allowed to throw abuse the way of Leavers - whereas we need to be careful how we respond.

The recent tactic has been to provoke Leave posters and when they get goaded into responding in like fashion seek to get them banned

You're on a roll today. Holidays is it?

 

[bluejon]

You're on a roll today. Holidays is it?

I have a load of synths and a drum machine at home. I think 'the pack' needs a theme song.

 

[Ban-jani]

Helpful graphic on the sex pest’s border proposals

What happens if you are a French National that travels to Ireland if freedom of movement has ended?

Is freedom of movement only ending for Great Britain and not the island of Ireland?

How don’t we know this by late 2019?

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

So here...are these the plans for the NI situation..?

We are now going to have a border between NI and RoI...and a border between NI and GB?

So, instead of no borders, we are going to have 2 borders...and after 4 years the NI government will be able to decide/vote on whether we keep alignment with the EU or GB.

This is our NI government who havent been able to sit for 3 years because they cant decide on an Irish Language act, or scrapping the petition of concern....they will be asked to decide on an international treaty?

Aye, dead on mate.

 

[Hesperus]

Google the implications of the UK signing up to an unfettered backstop that will see the EU controlling all UK key economic and fiscal polices for decade(s) to come

It is OK - there are many on here that post without understanding the implications of the unfettered backstop

That would only be the case if the backstop were invoked and even if it was invoked , it would only be the case until the future relationship is resolved. Or am I misunderstanding?

To me. Mays deal is a hard Brexit, it just takes longer to get there than a no deal and at least during the time it takes to get there we will not fall off a cliff edge economically.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Don't worry, we are in safe hands.



And here is good old Liz again

 

[BobKowalski]

So here...are these the plans for the NI situation..?

We are now going to have a border between NI and RoI...and a border between NI and GB?

So, instead of no borders, we are going to have 2 borders...and after 4 years the NI government will be able to decide/vote on whether we keep alignment with the EU or GB.

This is our NI government who havent been able to sit for 3 years because they cant decide on an Irish Language act, or scrapping the petition of concern....they will be asked to decide on an international treaty?

Aye, dead on mate.

So you are saying...it’s possible?

Asking for a friend. Blonde chap. Likes groping women. You may know him.

 

[cibaman]

True but the strategies are not mutually exclusive. Stripping all the bluster and ‘surrender bill’ bollocks out of it there is a long way from where Johnson started and where he is now. Johnson needs a way out and it’s either a deal, on which as we can see he has moved, or no deal with lots of drama and rhetoric secure in the knowledge that Parliament will stymie that one.

No matter how rubbish the proposals are if the EU treat it as an opening gambit - a move which two months ago was resolutely ruled out by Johnson - and commence talks this sucks Johnson into more rounds of negotiation which Johnson is obliged to enter into otherwise it is the UK who will cop the flak for no deal. But the proposals have to be better than reported otherwise ‘take it or leave it’ is risible if even a blind man can spot the gaping holes in them.

Anyway we will see how it plays out.

Isn’t Johnson’s fundamental problem that he has no control over parliament. Any legislation that he tables could be amended beyond recognition by the time it becomes law. Including having a confirmatory referendum tagged on.

 

[Blue Hefner]

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

So you are saying...it’s possible?

Asking for a friend. Blonde chap. Likes groping women. You may know him.

ya know, yeah i can see it being implemented...in a feck you all we're doing this kinda way...but jeez, 4 years time will be some craic.....its effectively an unwanted, uncalled for Border Poll

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I just simply disagree and (of course) believe I have the right of it.

in late 2019 the duplicitous other parties - Labour, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Remainers - will make no effort to come to an agreement.

Unfortunate as it is - the only outcome that delivers Brexit is by taking us out and then fixing things.

And this is where your original plan falls down at the 'goodwill' proviso, that you stipulated.
You only have to look at how long it took to put the GFA together.
Every line, every phrase in that document was forensically scrutinised by the Unionist side in particular (UUP) to make sure it was something they could live with.
There is or was no goodwill. It was mistrust far worse than anything between the UK and the EU across a very divided community.
Promises for the future were meaningless unless it could be put down in writing in a binding legal document. Lip-service doesn't go down well in the North.

The DUP did not sign up for it, but as Alex has stated previously it finally got a 72% approval on the Northern side of the border.

The problem with the backstop as it is at the moment, from your perspective is the lack of trust that the EU won't seek to find a way to end it.
From our perspective, it was negotiated in good faith and the reason we agreed to it was that if you put a time line on it, we do not trust that your government will seek a solution once you are out and we don't think there is a solution on the near horizon.

I think it is so transparent what Johnson is at, that although diplomatically our government or the EU can't come out and say it, but really it seems pointless dealing with him.
The hope would be that you have a GE and one side or the other gets a majority, even if it is him, as no meaningful plans can be made until you have a government that are capable of getting a workable solution through parliament.

I think we all agree this is a mess of your own making and quite apart from what you perceive as negotiating errors from your side, the biggest mess still seems to me to be that you had a referendum in the first place that returned a result that could not be interpreted along traditional GE party divisions.
However your parliament at every turn is voting and scheming along those very lines, although their own parties are riven on the subject.

This is not our mess and there really is little we can do about it when you have a hung parliament in Britain.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

There is no Remain option in the circumstance that I am discussing

The 100% backstop option is ruinous to the UK's interests - you should be vehemently against it - as should all right thinking UK citizens IMO

And putting a 2-3 year time limit on it simply puts NI/Ireland in the same situation 2-3 years down the line.
No Deal is not the threat you think it is under present circumstances. There is serious work needed before NI leaves the EU. The same care that went into the GFA would be required in drafting the legal documents necessary. It wouldn't happen in the present mess.
Might as well take the hurt now and prepare for 5-10 years down the road.

 

[lancs blue]

Don't worry, we are in safe hands.



And here is good old Liz again

Truss quotes USA,Canada and Mexico agreeing a trade deal in a year but fails to mention that that was essentially an alteration to an existing NAFTA deal not a complete, start from scratch deal covering every facet of trading. Also as far as I'm aware that amended deal has still not been fully ratified.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Surely the answer to the backstop is to give the people of Northern Ireland a referendum on the matter. That’ll sort it out.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Surely the answer to the backstop is to give the people of Northern Ireland a referendum on the matter. That’ll sort it out.

What's the question?

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Surely the answer to the backstop is to give the people of Northern Ireland a referendum on the matter. That’ll sort it out.

er, yeah kinda...but thats effectively asking for a Border Poll...there isnt the will or want for such a HUGE question....

Christ, im actually terrified at the thought of a border poll right now

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

What's the question?

In or out, but it’s only advisory ;-)

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

In or out, but it’s only advisory ;-)

Learn from your mistakes.
It can't be a binary choice.
There has to be a 'shake it all about' option.