Another new Brexit thread

[Chippy_boy]

Perhaps not everyone is pitifully insecure, and they would be happy to be proven wrong.

Just sayin.

Just most on here Gordon.

 

[Hesperus]

Yes you are

And - genuinely with intended respect - being very naïve

Through control of the Uk's customs and fiscal policies, the EU will hold us in the backstop trap for however many years they need to totally neuter what they see as the threat of an independent major power just off their shoreline.

You are not alone - quite a lot seem to not understand the simple truths

No, you totally ignored my first sentence, are you Boris Johnson? Your ability to ignore questions and only put forward points you want is amazing. If the backstop is not invoked, as is the intention in the political declaration or even if it is invoked, once a future relationship is agreed the backstop ceases to continue. I’m not being naive but you are selective in your response.

Anyway no point discussing the May deal any longer as it’s irrelevant now with Boris’s new deal. Are you happy with that? Nigel Farage wasn’t exactly endorsing it.

 

[Vic]

But that is only your opinion - why must you assume that your opinion is right?

Mine is that the generations to come that benefit from the health of the UK because their parents/grandparents took tough decisions will be forever in our debt (even if they do not thank us - you know what kids are like)

Just bizarre. "You assume your opinion is right and here's mine which I know is right IMO" and that's despite your having just said that long term economic forecasting is pointless "but I only meant for Remainers not for me".

 

[journolud]

Apologies - I appreciate that sometimes when something is clear in my mind - it might become less so as I try and express it

1. With regards to undermining the UK - my comments are aimed at the EU sycophants at Westminster - certainly not Ireland

Why do you insist on referring to remainers, or even leavers who have voted agsinst what even you say is a shit deal, as sycophants. You have a lot to say and are pretty sure of your positions but you are pretty condescending and this childish oft repeated insult of people who just might be acting in what they see as the nations best interests rather than sucking up to the EU is pretty grating. Care to justify the insult or perhaps withdraw it.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Give over - it has never been fucked off...….

Because the EU have never been in a situation where they would have to consider the prospect of a viable walk away option and the political will to use it

How can you not understand this?

The EU have considered all options, & came to a deal with our Government, which ended up with a backstop, due to none of the proposals, including 'relying on technology' being any use, to solve the problem. Bozo has just brought it back.

They would reluctantly prefer 'no deal' than to allow access to the EU through a backdoor & are better prepared than we are, by far, for a no deal Brexit.

I'll give you one, simple, unarguable reason why they are better prepared: because they have been reliant on working with Europe & will still have the whole of Europe, unchanged, to wok with, minus GB.

GB has been reliant on working with Europe & will have GB to work with, minus the whole of Europe.

So if there is 'no deal', whilst it's pain for them, they still have 20 odd countries to work in (to use your phrase) 'unfettered'. We have one.

If I was a German for instance, who works around Europe, I just carry on as normal, but without GB.

In my case, as someone from GB who works around Europe, I just stop working, until our Government works out an agreement, to be allowed to start again, which they will likely fuck up completely.

That's the difference.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Yes you are

And - genuinely with intended respect - being very naïve

Through control of the Uk's customs and fiscal policies, the EU will hold us in the backstop trap for however many years they need to totally neuter what they see as the threat of an independent major power just off their shoreline.

You are not alone - quite a lot seem to not understand the simple truths

It's just you, that doesn't understand that everyone else, fully understands how the backstop works.

The difference being that some perhaps don't agree, that we would allow the EU, to continue using it in bad faith, if a solution to the Irish border can be found.

If our Government is telling the truth, then of course technology will soon be the answer, so it will quickly be brought to a conclusion & the EU cancel the backstop, or risk having one of their most powerful, NATO allies, withdrawing cooperation etc.

If our Government is lying through its teeth about a 'solution' to the Irish border problem, than yes, we would be trapped in the backstop.

So yes, we would be trapped in the backstop.

 

[Ban-jani]

I do - and I said something different - that the issue had been deliberately weaponised by the EU - and I have been proven totally correct

It is all just political manoeuvring

I am not expecting you to understand

You said we were exaggerating the issue on here. We said it’s what is stopping a Brexit deal getting universal approval.

We were right and you are wrong. Yet again.

 

[Ban-jani]

The EU have considered all options, & came to a deal with our Government, which ended up with a backstop, due to none of the proposals, including 'relying on technology' being any use, to solve the problem. Bozo has just brought it back.

They would reluctantly prefer 'no deal' than to allow access to the EU through a backdoor & are better prepared than we are, by far, for a no deal Brexit.

I'll give you one, simple, unarguable reason why they are better prepared: because they have been reliant on working with Europe & will still have the whole of Europe, unchanged, to wok with, minus GB.

GB has been reliant on working with Europe & will have GB to work with, minus the whole of Europe.

So if there is 'no deal', whilst it's pain for them, they still have 20 odd countries to work in (to use your phrase) 'unfettered'. We have one.

If I was a German for instance, who works around Europe, I just carry on as normal, but without GB.

In my case, as someone from GB who works around Europe, I just stop working, until our Government works out an agreement, to be allowed to start again, which they will likely fuck up completely.

That's the difference.

He won’t “understand” this.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Apologies - I appreciate that sometimes when something is clear in my mind - it might become less so as I try and express it

1. With regards to undermining the UK - my comments are aimed at the EU sycophants at Westminster - certainly not Ireland

2. I have a great deal of sympathy/empathy with Ireland. They did not cause any of this 'mess' - as they would see it - but in the end they will agree to a sensible compromise.

No matter the understandably bitter taste it will leave - they will not opt for the generations long adverse impact that would result form their not doing.

But - at the moment - I can understand Ireland 'seeming to play hard ball' with the pronouncements that the full backstop must be retained. That stance would crumble in the face of a genuine risk of no-deal (IMO)

I hope that helps - let me know if anything else is unclear

The 'sensible compromise' would involve people, some of whom who have fought each other & many relatives etc died & had to live through all kinds of shit, for many many years, who finally came to an agreement which got rid of restrictions & borders & brought peace, accepting restrictions & borders, in their country.

I wouldn't.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Apologies - I appreciate that sometimes when something is clear in my mind - it might become less so as I try and express it

1. With regards to undermining the UK - my comments are aimed at the EU sycophants at Westminster - certainly not Ireland

2. I have a great deal of sympathy/empathy with Ireland. They did not cause any of this 'mess' - as they would see it - but in the end they will agree to a sensible compromise.

No matter the understandably bitter taste it will leave - they will not opt for the generations long adverse impact that would result form their not doing.

But - at the moment - I can understand Ireland 'seeming to play hard ball' with the pronouncements that the full backstop must be retained. That stance would crumble in the face of a genuine risk of no-deal (IMO)

I hope that helps - let me know if anything else is unclear

Didn't the EU already agree to the withdrawal agreement though? Surely both parties need to be happy with the deal for it work out.

I'd say the burden is on us really since we initiated the whole thing so I don't really have a belief that the EU are to blame for our actions

 

[BlueHammer85]

Got some work to do, but will reply to this later

Genuinely think you should take a break for a bit.
No ones agreeing with your points and instead your selective quotes and tedious writing style is getting people’s backs up.

 

[Neville Kneville]

All I did was say 'spot on' to a post that said:

"Anyone with a half decent understanding of economics knows that long term forecasting, especially on something as complicated and chaotic as brexit, is completely pointless as the unknowns stacking up over time make it impossible to calculate anything even remotely close to an accurate prediction."

Which was a Remainer expressing that all the Remainer doom and gloom is 'suspect'

It isn't that, at all.

It is simply pointing out, that there comes a point where it's so far into the future, it is difficult to be certain which event causes which outcome.

Any hard Brexit will be an almighty fucking mess which will continue to fuck up many people's lives & deny the young generations, the opportunities, we had.

Whether the country recovers from it, eventually, to be in as good, or better position than it would have otherwise been, is impossible to predict. We could discover a new means of energy & be rich or descend into civil war, for all we know.

If I had to guess, I'd imagine we'd be signed up back in some kind of agreement with Europe.

 

[Vic]

Genuinely think you should take a break for a bit.
No ones agreeing with your points and instead your selective quotes and tedious writing style is getting people’s backs up.

I think he probably needs some sleep. If he's in Cyprus as he says he was posting at 1.30 am and 4.30 am. (Maybe it's too hot to "work" during the day.)

Whatever he's saying and even if it starts to sound reasonable, as soon as I see "EU sycophant" I usually skip the rest of the post.

Most of his posts carry an insult unless it's to say "good post" or "spot on" to something he agrees with even when it's crap.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

Listening to R4. No border checks in NI. How do we stop "undesirables" entering? Says the way we stop smuggling is by intelligence led stop and search. Good luck with that.

 

[FlemishDuck]

All I did was say 'spot on' to a post that said:

"Anyone with a half decent understanding of economics knows that long term forecasting, especially on something as complicated and chaotic as brexit, is completely pointless as the unknowns stacking up over time make it impossible to calculate anything even remotely close to an accurate prediction."

Which was a Remainer expressing that all the Remainer doom and gloom is 'suspect'

Even then, the geste of this argument seems rather suspect. I mean, lets try to translate it to rocket science:
remainer: I believe we lack the info to conclude with sufficient certainty that our untested vessel won't blow up out there if we try to leave planet earth
leaver: you can't predict the outcome with youre science, so lets go for it.....

 

[Chippy_boy]

The EU have considered all options, & came to a deal with our Government, which ended up with a backstop, due to none of the proposals, including 'relying on technology' being any use, to solve the problem. Bozo has just brought it back.

They would reluctantly prefer 'no deal' than to allow access to the EU through a backdoor & are better prepared than we are, by far, for a no deal Brexit.

I'll give you one, simple, unarguable reason why they are better prepared: because they have been reliant on working with Europe & will still have the whole of Europe, unchanged, to wok with, minus GB.

GB has been reliant on working with Europe & will have GB to work with, minus the whole of Europe.

So if there is 'no deal', whilst it's pain for them, they still have 20 odd countries to work in (to use your phrase) 'unfettered'. We have one.

If I was a German for instance, who works around Europe, I just carry on as normal, but without GB.

In my case, as someone from GB who works around Europe, I just stop working, until our Government works out an agreement, to be allowed to start again, which they will likely fuck up completely.

That's the difference.

Well put. This was always the case but some Brexit supporters failed to grasp it.

We are circa 12% of Germany's car export market. The EU is more than 50% if ours. Netherland exports circa $30bn per year to us, we export 10x that to the EU. Etc etc etc.

However, very unfortunately, we voted to leave. So very reluctantly I've accepted we must. We cannot simply choose to ignore the referendum result. Sadly.

The ENORMOUS fuck up was losing the bloody thing in the first place.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-...fter-a-lukewarm-response-from-the-eu-11825956

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Well put. This was always the case but some Brexit supporters failed to grasp it.

We are circa 12% of Germany's car export market. The EU is more than 50% if ours. Netherland exports circa $30bn per year to us, we export 10x that to the EU. Etc etc etc.

However, very unfortunately, we voted to leave. So very reluctantly I've accepted we must. We cannot simply choose to ignore the referendum result. Sadly.

The ENORMOUS fuck up was losing the bloody thing in the first place.

It's Pandora's box, we should never have opened it

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Listening to R4. No border checks in NI. How do we stop "undesirables" entering? Says the way we stop smuggling is by intelligence led stop and search. Good luck with that.

And with 'technology' that doesn't exist anywhere

 

[Vic]

Cheap point?
Does Stormont constitution give either unionists or nationalists a veto even where there's a majority?

Actually, doesn't this mean that if both blocs have a veto, expecting Stormont to renew agreements could mean that there might never be agreement even if there's a majority of MLAs within the Assembly?

The principle of "consent" is what was behind Lord Trimble's wanting judicial review of the backstop on the grounds that it breached the consent provisions of the Good Friday Agreement. But these proposals give the DUP the whip hand in wrecking the GFA they never wanted.