Another new Brexit thread

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Per head of population......

You're the one crying how subservient you are.

I'm telling you its complete fucking rubbish.
You are telling me that English Mps don’t outnumber Scots welsh and NI Mps. In Westminster votes for any bill are decided by these numbers. It’s you that’s on the wacky backy mate.

You also manage to misquote me, I wasn’t crying, I was reflecting it as fact.

We have our own parliament, etc etc. But that has fuck all to do with who holds the power in Westminster and therefore who determines what happens in the U.K. which is where the terms of the referendum was decided. You know that though so I’m assuming you are just on the wum.
 
Federations/alliances will fail if one single block is seen to inflict their views on others, rather than talking them into it and considering their view.
I'm pretty certain that the SNP don't think that May and Johnson (let alone the ERGers) have considered them.

Yes i think thats the obvious and fundamental principle to take in mind, besides that a majority of the Scots seem to agree on that point aswell.
 
And yet they keep getting voted for. How undemocratic is that? And George, your last sentence perfectly describes the current conservative PM and government a lot more closely than it does the Westminster SNP.
They get voted in because of indefensible shambles in the parties they've replaced - they are the equivalent of the Brexit Party north of the border. A single issue defines them which will disappear after Brexit - as will they. Nobody in their right mind would vote for Scottish independence after the UK leaves the EU.
 
You are telling me that English Mps don’t outnumber Scots welsh and NI Mps. In Westminster votes for any bill are decided by these numbers. It’s you that’s on the wacky backy mate.

You also manage to misquote me, I wasn’t crying, I was reflecting it as fact.

We have our own parliament, etc etc. But that has fuck all to do with who holds the power in Westminster and therefore who determines what happens in the U.K. which is where the terms of the referendum was decided. You know that though so I’m assuming you are just on the wum.

You have a devolved parliament ffs. I pay more tax up here as decided by the Scottish government than I would in England. That's power.

English mp's had no say on that as they didn't on free prescriptions in Scotland yet the SNP had a say in Westminster for millions of English constituents.

In what way are Scots, Welsh and NI citizens subservient to the English?
 
Yeah, i think it won't last, realisticly at some point the rest wil have to be made equal partners or the Union won't survive imho. Just my perception as a Flemming drawn from a background where we struggled for decades to have an equal say in Belgium. Granted Scotland is somewhat different, a distinct point is that Scottish Gaelic is not the common tongue in Scotland anymore afaik.
No Gaelic is not commonly spoken but it is alive and well in the Islands and some areas of the Highlands.
 
I would of put it exactly the other way around. I repeat, none of them have a majority democratic mandate to pursue their primary objective as a separatist party. To compound this fundamental disconnect most have clearly abandoned even the faintest pretence of fulfilling the Westminster MP's role to represent all their constituents. A veritable infestation of rancorous parasites bent on degrading our democratic processes.


Brexiteer objecting to Scotland wanting independence from the UK......... Whilst championing the UK wanting independence from the Eu.






The irony
 
They get voted in because of indefensible shambles in the parties they've replaced - they are the equivalent of the Brexit Party north of the border. A single issue defines them which will disappear after Brexit - as will they. Nobody in their right mind would vote for Scottish independence after the UK leaves the EU.

Watch how the iconic Scottish single malt whiskey industry gets absolutly clobbered after leaving the EU trading block and being faced with the big tarrifs the US has set on them via the WTO. Do i smell a social bloodbath? IDK, perhaps the Brits will switch en masse to Whiskey post Brexit as there is something of an argument for that too.
 
Very interesting read in the Spectator this morning and it appears to have number 10' genius political strategist finger prints all over it according to ex tory cabinet member Amber Rudd

‘The negotiations will probably end this week. Varadkar doesn’t want to negotiate. Varadkar was keen on talking before the Benn Act when he thought that the choice would be ‘new deal or no deal’. Since the Benn Act passed he has gone very cold and in the last week the official channels and the backchannels have also gone cold. Varadkar has also gone back on his commitments — he said if we moved on manufactured goods then he would also move but instead he just attacked us publicly. It’s clear he wants to gamble on a second referendum and that he’s encouraging Barnier to stick to the line that the UK cannot leave the EU without leaving Northern Ireland behind.

There are quite a few people in Paris and Berlin who would like to discuss our offer but Merkel and Macron won’t push Barnier unless Ireland says it wants to negotiate. Those who think Merkel will help us are deluded. As things stand, Dublin will do nothing, hoping we offer more, then at the end of this week they may say ‘OK, let’s do a Northern Ireland only backstop with a time limit’, which is what various players have been hinting at, then we’ll say No, and that will probably be the end.


Varadkar thinks that either there will be a referendum or we win a majority but we will just put this offer back on the table so he thinks he can’t lose by refusing to compromise now. Given his assumptions, Varadkar’s behaviour is arguably rational but his assumptions are, I think, false. Ireland and Brussels listen to all the people who lost the referendum, they don’t listen to those who won the referendum and they don’t understand the electoral dynamics here.

If this deal dies in the next few days, then it won’t be revived. To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately’. They thought that if May went then Brexit would get softer. It seems few have learned from this mistake. They think we’re bluffing and there’s nothing we can do about that, not least given the way May and Hammond constantly talked tough then folded.

So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act. The Act imposes narrow duties. Our legal advice is clear that we can do all sorts of things to scupper delay which for obvious reasons we aren’t going into details about. Different lawyers see the “frustration principle” very differently especially on a case like this where there is no precedent for primary legislation directing how the PM conducts international discussions.

We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation — cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected if the EU tries to keep Britain in against the will of its government] Supporting delay will be seen by this government as hostile interference in domestic politics, and over half of the public will agree with us.

We will also make clear that this government will not negotiate further so any delay would be totally pointless. They think now that if there is another delay we will keep coming back with new proposals. This won’t happen. We’ll either leave with no deal on 31 October or there will be an election and then we will leave with no deal.

‘When they say ‘so what is the point of delay?’, we will say “This is not our delay, the government is not asking for a delay — Parliament is sending you a letter and Parliament is asking for a delay but official government policy remains that delay is an atrocious idea that everyone should dismiss. Any delay will in effect be negotiated between you, Parliament, and the courts — we will wash our hands of it, we won’t engage in further talks, we obviously won’t given any undertakings about cooperative behaviour, everything to do with ‘duty of sincere cooperation’ will be in the toilet, we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave. Those who supported delay will face the inevitable consequences of being seen to interfere in domestic politics in a deeply unpopular way by colluding with a Parliament that is as popular as the clap.

Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/

Whether or not this is deliberate posturing or a sign of just how desperate they are to force through a No Deal on 31st October or directly after an election (assuming that they win one, its not a good read.
 
So if they want to break up the union, their avowed aim, why all the angst when we, after suffering their presence in our parliament, tend to want the same result? We never instigated this anti English sentiment they did, but if they wish to push it, well, they can crack on.
Not sure why you're telling me.
I'm no supporter of Scottish nationalism or the SNP. Whilst the SNP are currently the largest party in Scotland, their support falls well short of a majority.
Just because a minority have anti English sentiment, that's not sufficient reason as far as I'm concerned to want to break up the union.
 
You have a devolved parliament ffs. I pay more tax up here as decided by the Scottish government than I would in England. That's power.

English mp's had no say on that as they didn't on free prescriptions in Scotland yet the SNP had a say in Westminster for millions of English constituents.

In what way are Scots, Welsh and NI citizens subservient to the English?
You are deliberately missing the point. For something as massive as the Referendum and Brexit. Westminster decides the terms and direction not the Scottish Parliament. Both of the main parties have a majority of English mps, both the main parties committed to deliver Brexit. Scotland voted to remain. Scotland can’t remain because there are insufficient numbers of Mps from Scotland in Westminster to stop it. Ffs am I talking to a child?
 
You are deliberately missing the point. For something as massive as the Referendum and Brexit. Westminster decides the terms and direction not the Scottish Parliament. Both of the main parties have a majority of English mps, both the main parties committed to deliver Brexit. Scotland voted to remain. Scotland can’t remain because there are insufficient numbers of Mps from Scotland in Westminster to stop it. Ffs am I talking to a child?

Scotland did not vote to remain as over a million Scots voted to leave.

The UK of which Scotland is a part voted to leave.
 
I would of put it exactly the other way around. I repeat, none of them have a majority democratic mandate to pursue their primary objective as a separatist party. To compound this fundamental disconnect most have clearly abandoned even the faintest pretence of fulfilling the Westminster MP's role to represent all their constituents. A veritable infestation of rancorous parasites bent on degrading our democratic processes.
have
 
You are deliberately missing the point. For something as massive as the Referendum and Brexit. Westminster decides the terms and direction not the Scottish Parliament. Both of the main parties have a majority of English mps, both the main parties committed to deliver Brexit. Scotland voted to remain. Scotland can’t remain because there are insufficient numbers of Mps from Scotland in Westminster to stop it. Ffs am I talking to a child?
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, the whole country voted as determined by Parliament - that is the end of the matter.
 
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, the whole country voted as determined by Parliament - that is the end of the matter.
And the number of Scottish mps in Parliament (which governs the U.K.) is subservient to the number of English mps. Fact. That is the end of the matter until Scotland determines through a democratic vote wether it wishes to remain in the U.K.
 
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