Another new Brexit thread

[blueinsa]

Ther is no annexing in May's EU agreed deal, nor would there be in a Norway plus deal. The issue is an issue entirely down to Tory / DUP and ERG red lines.

There is because they will never agree to us leaving and the backstop will be invoked.

Trap and today's news confirms it as it does there intentions.

 

[Saddleworth2]

But as it has been made very clear; we did not vote as separate countries of the UK Union, we voted as one nation, the United Kingdom and Gibraltar. This was approved by the majority of Parliament, a Parliament which SNP elected members regularly take up their seats.

In the referendum Scotland did NOT vote as a separate country. It wasn't like the terms of the IndyRef. "Scotland" isn't being "dragged out against 'its' will", it is leaving in accordance to the rest of the Union of which Scotland is a part.

How about the 1m Scots who voted to leave the EU. Surely then you'd be forcing them to remain in a unino with Europe they want to leave? Why no concern for their opinions, or are they not true Scotsmen?

This is such a bloody circular argument I am quickly losing the will to live:

my Point simply, is that Scotland mp’s in Westminster could not influence the terms of the original referendum because there numbers are subservient (bad word) or insufficient to outnumber an primarily English based government. There was no opportunity to require a unanimous vote from all 4 countries as there are insufficient numbers of mps to vote that through.

Is that simple enough.

 

[mcfc1632]

Rubbish.

More MP's per head of population, more spent per head of population and even your own parliament that English and Welsh MP's have no say in whilst the SNP can and often does stick its nose into the lives of millions it doesn't represent nor is accountable to.

Chips on shoulders!

Thanks - I was shocked when I read that

I would think that there are whole swathes of England that would love to be as 'unrepresented' and to receive as 'raw' a deal as Scotland does from Westminster

 

[Saddleworth2]

Well it should be 'all the English' and we should be wishing them all the very best with whatever democratic decision that they wish to make.

Self-determination should be the right of any 'country' - personally I hope that they stay in the UK, but there is a major flaw in your statement.

There is more chance of then leaving the UK if we do not Brexit - you have it the wrong may around.

No I don’t because I am merely reflecting back at the original poster what he said.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I tried. Too many big words.

I have tried again with little ones :-)

 

[George Hannah]

Tusk now wading in


Calling BoJo stupid and not wanting a deal....

 

[Saddleworth2]

Per head of population Scotland has more MP's.

What do you want, the exact same number of MP's representing over 4 million people as there is to represent over 60 million?

You have devolved government with legislative powers and no say from any English.

You have MP's in westminster that have a say in English only matters and you get more funding per head than anyone else.

Subservient my arse.

Keep your arse out of it.

England has more mps in Westminster than Scotland.
True or False?

 

[mcfc1632]

Let me just check my understanding:
English Brexiteers 100% want Scotland out of the Union because ummm... they won and these pesky nats are standing in the way
English Remainers 100% want Scotland out of the Union because ummm... they abhor nationalism? Or don’t like nasty slurs against the nats?

Ok got it.

Don't think that you have gotten anything even half right today - been a strangely confused day for you so far

Anyway - as you have it so far wrong as you seem to strive to prove some point about English wanting Scotland out of the Union I think that is best to let you crack on.

Someone yesterday also did a proper crap job at pushing that argument

 

[blueinsa]

Keep your arse out of it.

England has more mps in Westminster than Scotland.
True or False?

No shit sherlock.

Apologies if that upsets you but it in no way makes you subservient, as per your claim.

 

[George Hannah]

This is such a bloody circular argument I am quickly losing the will to live:

my Point simply, is that Scotland mp’s in Westminster could not influence the terms of the original referendum because there numbers are subservient (bad word) or insufficient to outnumber an primarily English based government. There was no opportunity to require a unanimous vote from all 4 countries as there are insufficient numbers of mps to vote that through.

Is that simple enough.

Do you imagine that somehow the terms of the referendum could have been such as to exempt various parts of the country from its result?

 

[blueparrot]

There is because they will never agree to us leaving and the backstop will be invoked.

Trap and today's news confirms it as it does there intentions.

Of course always the victims never our fault.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Don't think that you have gotten anything even half right today - been a strangely confused day for you so far

Anyway - as you have it so far wrong as you seem to strive to prove some point about English wanting Scotland out of the Union I think that is best to let you crack on.

Someone yesterday also did a proper crap job at pushing that argument

I really don’t need your validation mate. I care even less if you think I’m wrong. Strangely, you do not set the parameters of what is correct or not, albeit you act and post as if you do. The post you referred to simply mirrored back to the original poster what he had posted.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes, and i think there is a point also to mention that Scottish parliament came back into existance so to speak around 1997 trough a referendum?
I have to say, if the UK is "not nessecarily what it's name specificly suggests, but more like a contemporary practicle arrangement of power between distinct parts", that the trend shows Scotland is kinda redifing the UK somewhat in modern terms and it flows from the fact that the Union can only so much ignore the specific self deterministic wishes from Scotland?

And they expressed those self-determination wishes, and they voted by a majority to remain part of the UK.

 

[mcfc1632]

Federations/alliances will fail if one single block is seen to inflict their views on others, rather than talking them into it and considering their view.
I'm pretty certain that the SNP don't think that May and Johnson (let alone the ERGers) have considered them.

But they have most likely considered and represented the views of the nearly 40% of Scots that voted to Leave the EU far better than the SNP - who appear not to have given them any consideration or representation at all.

 

[blueinsa]

Tusk now wading in


Calling BoJo stupid and not wanting a deal....

Upset at leaks.

Oh the irony.

 

[George Hannah]

Brexit Crisis - Stock Exchange shares plummet as Hong Kong SE withdraws its £32billion offer - those Commies eh

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thanks - I was shocked when I read that

I would think that there are whole swathes of England that would love to be as 'unrepresented' and to receive as 'raw' a deal as Scotland does from Westminster

Not the point. As you well know.

 

[BobKowalski]

Hang on Bob.

You tell us this is what will happen, Merkel confirms it and then you say she didnt?

Backstop was a trap and was always Dublins and the EU's plan to effectively annex Northern Ireland.

Not interested in a deal and they couldnt give a rats arse about the GFA either.

I’m just the messenger boy and getting the coffees in.

You want the German side of the conversation then ok here it is.

‘Note from German Chancellery: confirms that Merkel and Johnson spoke, declines to make contents of call public.‘

I would infer from this that the No 10 spin on the convo was largely accurate if a tad colourful.

 

[FlemishDuck]

And they expressed those self-determination wishes, and they voted by a majority to remain part of the UK.

Allow me not to touch the elephant in the room to then point to something i find more telling: Scottish parliament was taken out of the equasion for 290 years, and then came back about 20 years ago (relativly "young") purely on the basis of being able to achieve that via referendum. In principl that by itself is some sort of large goverment reform that redefine's youre political system. You gave me the legal reason upon which the UK could have build an argument to deny that to the Scots but in practice it's not how it works, right?

 

[George Hannah]

Allow me not to touch the elephant in the room to then point to something i find more telling: Scottish parliament was taken out of the equasion for 290 years, and then came back about 20 years ago (relativly "young") purely on the basis of being able to achieve that via referendum. In principl that by itself is some sort of large goverment reform that redefine's youre political system. You gave me the legal reason upon which the UK could have build an argument to deny that to the Scots but in practice it's not how it works, right?

No, wrong.