Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's 'Starmer' mate, or is that just your Mancunian accent showing through?

It was our kid....

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Interesting take on why Johnsons poll lead may not deliver what he expects.

The amount of tactical voting going on in the GE will be insane.

 

[Metal Biker]

The EU reforms where the EU told Cameron and the UK to fuck off? Yeah, ok.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/19/camerons-eu-deal-what-he-wanted-and-what-he-got

Well it was less "fuck off" and more "well, WE are doing it, and if YOU don't like it, you don't have to"

Making us feel like even more of an outsider than ever before. We wanted an end to this focus of making Europe more federal, and they told us "we're still gonna...". Not what we wanted to hear.

 

[blueparrot]

Not if people aren't willing to compromise.

It's Irish politics compromises, like the GFA, take decades not weeks.

 

[robbieh]

Not trying to be inflammatory BI, but what is your stance on English Nationalism then. Genuine question.

Surely the only vehicle open to elected Scottish nationalist is to influence where they can in Westminster. It is heavily weighted against them.

Scottish nationalists are Remainers.
English nationalists are Leavers.

Wherever you look around the world, Trump, Cataluña, Brexit, Salvini, Hungary, Turkey there are an awful lot of politicians playing the nationalist card. And it never ends well.

 

[grunge]

That's a rather... inaccurate summation of what some of the public felt! The two main ones being...

Sovereignty: What the UK (hereby refered to as "we") wanted.
For the EU to cease with the push for a federal Europe and "ever closer union".

The response: "We're doing it, but the UK can opt out of it".

Conclusion: NOT what we wanted. The EU was still advocating becoming federal at some point in the future, further excluding us from the bloc, unless we relented. Not cool Tusk.

Economic Governance: What UK wanted, "recognise the Pound as equal validity as a European Currency as the Euro!"

Response: "We're the Eurozone, dude, we don't care about the Pound"

Conclusion: Not the best sort of response, but understandable. The EU is all about the Eurozone at present. Makes the rest of us who don't use it feel a little forgotten about, though. Which was kind of the point to the request of reforms; make Europe more inclusive of members, and not this "Europe is EU" mentality.

The question we wanted to know was this; is the European Union, a union of 28 member states, with an equal voice, all for the prosperity of it's citizens, retaining sovereignty, or a bloc of 17 members sharing the same currency, economy, political aspects and 9 others? Turns out it was, according to Tusk, the latter.

see that's the thing. is it an inaccurate summation of what you think the public wanted, or is it an inaccurate summation of what Cameron asked for?

How do you know Cameron asked for what you wanted him to ask for? From that list on the BBC ( and other summaries i've read ), he got pretty much exactly what he asked for, which is a successful visit, But as you say, the general feeling, certainly in the media at the time, was it was a failed visit, But was it Cameron failing your views or the EU rejecting your views.

unless official transcripts are released im guessing we'll never really know.

 

[blueinsa]

Not trying to be inflammatory BI, but what is your stance on English Nationalism then. Genuine question.

Surely the only vehicle open to elected Scottish nationalist is to influence where they can in Westminster. It is heavily weighted against them.

Bar a few extreme nutters it doesn't exist other than in the heads of some that need it as an enemy and are seemingly serially offended by anything deemed English or anyone claiming to be proud of being English.

Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish citizens can quite rightly proclaim their pride in their nations yet to do the same with England brings on scowls and accusations of racism, fascism and right wing political association.

More often than not from fellow English citizens themselves.

Sad really.

 

[Metal Biker]

see that's the thing. is it an inaccurate summation of what you think the public wanted, or is it an inaccurate summation of what Cameron asked for?

How do you know Cameron asked for what you wanted him to ask for? From that list on the BBC ( and other summaries i've read ), he got pretty much exactly what he asked for, which is a successful visit, But as you say, the general feeling, certainly in the media at the time, was it was a failed visit, But was it Cameron failing your views or the EU rejecting your views.

unless official transcripts are released im guessing we'll never really know.

I'll give you a hint.

17.41m people voted to leave, when support for leaving was trailing prior to the referendum being announced. People were not happy, from what I remember and it only served to fuel the independence fires.

 

[BobKowalski]

Not if people aren't willing to compromise.

They aren’t and they won’t. What they have now works and they ain’t risking that just to help out the English. The U.K. needs the consent of the people for NI for Brexit to happen. So far we have not secured that consent especially those people and communities that are on the border. And just a quick reminder that the counties in NI that have the border with the RoI are Sinn Fein areas.

 

[Metal Biker]

They aren’t and they won’t. What they have now works and they ain’t risking that just to help out the English. The U.K. needs the consent of the people for NI for Brexit to happen. So far we have not secured that consent especially those people and communities that are on the border. And just a quick reminder that the counties in NI that have the border with the RoI are Sinn Fein areas.

Polls have indicated that the people in NI are perfectly fine with an Irish Sea customs border, and for them to remain in the Customs Union, so that the next stage of trade deal negotiations can begin.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Listening to LBC this morning and James O'B made reference to a set of tweets, I have looked them. I will repeat what was said as it is prescient.

<snip>

My interpretation of the above is what I have been saying all along.... Johnson is a narcissistic liar who is only interested in power and will go to any lengths to consolidate his grip on the job he believes he is entitled too.

Johnson has used the whole Brexit debate and has actively encouraged the chaos around it for self serving interests and because of that he is not a **** he is a triple **** who could not give two fucks for anybody apart from himself.

Out of interest, do you pin the end goal of being in power on Johnson alone (as the Johnson/Cummings entity), or is the Conservative party complicit in it too?

 

[grunge]

I'll give you a hint.

17.41m people voted to leave, when support for leaving was trailing prior to the referendum being announced. People were not happy, from what I remember and it only served to fuel the independence fires.

I fully get that. but that doesn't answer the question ( im not expecting anyone to actually have an answer mind you, im just mulling things over in my head ). was it a failure of Cameron to ask the right questions vs the EU actually shitting on us... the general public's view was certainly the latter, despite him getting what he apparently asked for.

Just trying to see what the root cause was, inaccurate representation of what people thought he was gonna ask, inaccurate representation of the results?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

That's a rather... inaccurate summation of what some of the public felt! The two main ones being...

Sovereignty: What the UK (hereby refered to as "we") wanted.
For the EU to cease with the push for a federal Europe and "ever closer union".

The response: "We're doing it, but the UK can opt out of it".

Conclusion: NOT what we wanted. The EU was still advocating becoming federal at some point in the future, further excluding us from the bloc, unless we relented. Not cool Tusk.

Economic Governance: What UK wanted, "recognise the Pound as equal validity as a European Currency as the Euro!"

Response: "We're the Eurozone, dude, we don't care about the Pound"

Conclusion: Not the best sort of response, but understandable. The EU is all about the Eurozone at present. Makes the rest of us who don't use it feel a little forgotten about, though. Which was kind of the point to the request of reforms; make Europe more inclusive of members, and not this "Europe is EU" mentality.

The question we wanted to know was this; is the European Union, a union of 28 member states, with an equal voice, all for the prosperity of it's citizens, retaining sovereignty, or a bloc of 17 members sharing the same currency, economy, political aspects and 9 others? Turns out it was, according to Tusk, the latter.

Something we always wondered over here is;
Is the UK a union of 4 member states, with an equal voice, all for the prosperity of it's citizens, sharing the same currency etc., or is it more to do with the power and influence of just one of those member states.

We decided ages ago that it was the latter and opted out over and over before nearly getting out but it split the country leaving behind a lot of citizens and it's been messy ever since. Wonder would we have been better off just leaving without a deal. That would have descended into chaos and rivers of blood in the streets, but it would have been for the better after 50 years or so I'm sure.

So ,I think MB maybe you are better off just biting the bullet and going with the No Deal now and taking the short term pain for the long term gain.

 

[Metal Biker]

I fully get that. but that doesn't answer the question ( im not expecting anyone to actually have an answer mind you ). was it a failure of Cameron to ask the right questions vs the EU actually shitting on us... the general public's view was certainly the latter, despite him getting what he apparently asked for.

Just trying to see what the root cause was, inaccurate representation of what people thought he was gonna ask, inaccurate representation of the results?

Speaking for myself and people I know who at the time felt the same way and also voted to leave, it was more the arrogance of the EU to refuse to consider our warnings that we really didn't want to see the EU become federal, because if it did, we would feel like an outsider, more than we were already after refusing to adopt the Euro, again with them ignoring our warnings to our economy if we had done.

Some of us want the EU to be like the UN. A group of nations willing each other on, co-operating peacefully, yet still sovereign and independent. The overall goal of the EU, to created a Federal Europe or "United States of Europe", which has always been the aim, is not something supported by many people in the UK and indeed across Europe.

To me, it was seen as our last chance to stop it, for if we continued, we would find ourselves forced to accept a Federal Europe from which we couldn't escape.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Scottish nationalists are Remainers.
English nationalists are Leavers.

Wherever you look around the world, Trump, Cataluña, Brexit, Salvini, Hungary, Turkey there are an awful lot of politicians playing the nationalist card. And it never ends well.

That's kind of what I was getting at.
The UK Brexit is largely driven by an English Nationalist agenda which carries much more weight in the union than Scottish Nationalism.
Same with NI nationalism.
The regions don't carry the same equal say.

 

[Metal Biker]

Something we always wondered over here is;
Is the UK a union of 4 member states, with an equal voice, all for the prosperity of it's citizens, sharing the same currency etc., or is it more to do with the power and influence of just one of those member states.

We decided ages ago that it was the latter and opted out over and over before nearly getting out but it split the country leaving behind a lot of citizens and it's been messy ever since. Wonder would we have been better off just leaving without a deal. That would have descended into chaos and rivers of blood in the streets, but it would have been for the better after 50 years or so I'm sure.

So ,I think MB maybe you are better off just biting the bullet and going with the No Deal now and taking the short term pain for the long term gain.

I'd rather we just extend it and keep going until we find our compromise, and hope that more and more people start suggesting my preferred option, at least as a temporary method.

 

[BobKowalski]

Polls have indicated that the people in NI are perfectly fine with an Irish Sea customs border, and for them to remain in the Customs Union, so that the next stage of trade deal negotiations can begin.

And if it depended on majoritarian rule that would be great. The GFA set down that NI runs on consent rule. Both Unionists and Nationalists have to sign off. Neither side can overrule the other. Which is why the DUP having a veto under Johnson’s proposal was a non starter. That and everyone in NI pretty much hating on it.

We need to find a solution that both Unionists and Nationalists can agree on. To date we haven’t found one and no doubt Merkel this morning was pointing this out along with all the other things wrong with our latest wheeze.

 

[Metal Biker]

That's kind of what I was getting at.
The UK Brexit is largely driven by an English Nationalist agenda which carries much more weight in the union than Scottish Nationalism.
Same with NI nationalism.
The regions don't carry the same equal say.

Southern England and Northern England don't have the same agendas, though.

 

[robbieh]

That's kind of what I was getting at.
The UK Brexit is largely driven by an English Nationalist agenda which carries much more weight in the union than Scottish Nationalism.
Same with NI nationalism.
The regions don't carry the same equal say.

Numbers matter as will become obvious when we leave a very large trading block to go it alone.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Bar a few extreme nutters it doesn't exist other than in the heads of some that need it as an enemy and are seemingly serially offended by anything deemed English or anyone claiming to be proud of being English.

Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish citizens can quite rightly proclaim their pride in their nations yet to do the same with England brings on scowls and accusations of racism, fascism and right wing political association.

More often than not from fellow English citizens themselves.

Sad really.

I don't disagree with you on that actually.
I've quite often said in here that I don't have a problem with English Nationalism, but you should own it.
Don't let it become xenophobic. Have pride in being English.

However the truth of Nationalism is that it does lean towards separation. The natural course of English nationalism is not only leaving the EU but the break up of the UK only.
Particularly if it's at odds with nationalism in other regions of that union.