You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Ancient Citizen
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 15,712
If Brexit does happen, nobody here, South of the border, will give a toss about the SNP, or their demands.Of course, sure, why don't you decide why when and how Scotland gets to hold a referendum, and what the people get to think.
It is most likely going to be held, by 2021. It is being held off till a no-deal is off the table (or the reality), and there is clarity on brexit.
Other than that, SNP have the mandate, it was in their manifesto, they certainly have the numbers in Holyrood, and are the biggest Scottish party in Westminster.
Whether independence will happen or not is another matter, but yoy seriously misjudge how close it is to being able to happen.
And Your economic interpretation and assessment of the world will mean jack, i doubt anyone will think of it in terms you do.
Brexit, deal or no deal will only strengthen the SNP and the arguement for independence.
They had their referendum, voted to stay in the union, and can footstamp all they want, like 23/6/2016, it was a once in a lifetime vote.
The granting of any referendum is in the gift of the British PM, who, after 3 years and counting of this shitshow, will give their incessant squawking little attention, there is no need to.
Let me try to help. In short, if there is a deal BoJo will be out of his ditch and the EU, SNP, Farage, Jezzer and the Lib Dems will all be in it instead. ;)
Along with all the rest of us across the UK!
That is the brexit isolationism philosophy in a nutshell, however.
Let me break it to you, all (apart from farage) have existed long before brexit, and have more than one single agenda. But none are going away after Brexit.
Particularly farage, who will continue to exploit you and the gullible, and your strive for a 'genuine' brexit.
Is the level of Scottish trade with the rest of the UK a fact or opinionWhat you call facts are usually opinions, which sincerely held or not do not make them facts. You do seem to blur the lines between the two on a very consistent basis to construct your rhetoric. You are, like Johnson, consistent with your play book though, I will give you that.
What about their dependency on the UK to pay welfare benefits?
What about the border that would have to be controlled and Scotland will be responsible for
etc etc.
Nah - I just understand and objectively assess the facts - give it a try
Tell me the top 5 reasons why you feel the UK should not leave the EU
But you're just repeating your own Leave mantra. I'm repeating Leave's own mantra.So?
I am just commenting on the number of times you repeat it - obviously you feel the need to do so until the truth that it was a lie is accepted - I am just following your lead
Agreed;-)Bang on but they won't admit it. Anyhow let's not jump the gun here a deal is not done until tolmie posts a spurious you tube video. Even then it's only 50/50:-)
Just commenting on the many 100s of posts that have simply been Remainers not understanding how negotiations work - but insisting they do
In reality a lot have been just wanting to be proven right and have not understood the damage the unfettered backstop would do to the UK for decades
If Brexit does happen, nobody here, South of the border, will give a toss about the SNP, or their demands.
They had their referendum, voted to stay in the union, and can footstamp all they want, like 23/6/2016, it was a once in a lifetime vote.
The granting of any referendum is in the gift of the British PM, who, after 3 years and counting of this shitshow, will give their incessant squawking little attention, there is no need to.
Oh yes, how extremely democratic That is!
I thought you were a big promoter of democracy, but only it seems, when ensuring brexit happens by all means is concerned.
You are still at it. It’s not the EU that is moving.
As I said in an earlier post
No chickens counted - but without being capable of absolutely lying to themselves - nobody can deny that even the prospect of a No-Deal outcome has made the EU and Ireland move.
That in itself is worth being positive about - especially after soooo many ill-thought through posts that I have received...…..
Fred_Quimby
Well-Known Member
Agreed;-)
In reality a lot have been just wanting to be proven right and have not understood the damage the unfettered backstop would do to the UK for decades
Sorry am I being thick but what is an 'unfettered backstop' mean?
There will be a backstop by the sounds of things. But 'unfettered'?
Of course, sure, why don't you decide why when and how Scotland gets to hold a referendum, and what the people get to think.
It is most likely going to be held, by 2021. It is being held off till a no-deal is off the table (or the reality), and there is clarity on brexit.
Other than that, SNP have the mandate, it was in their manifesto, they certainly have the numbers in Holyrood, and are the biggest Scottish party in Westminster.
Whether independence will happen or not is another matter, but yoy seriously misjudge how close it is to being able to happen.
And Your economic interpretation and assessment of the world will mean jack, i doubt anyone will think of it in terms you do.
Brexit, deal or no deal will only strengthen the SNP and the arguement for independence.
Sorry - you can express all the passion you want - there is, IMO, little likelihood that Scotland would vote to leave the UK if the UK has already (genuinely) left the EU
Try debating rather than ranting
To start with tell me what are the most compelling reasons that you think the UK should not Leave the EU?
Last edited:
Fred_Quimby
Well-Known Member
No chickens counted - but without being capable of absolutely lying to themselves - nobody can deny that even the prospect of a No-Deal outcome has made the EU and Ireland move.
That in itself is worth being positive about - especially after soooo many ill-thought through posts that I have received...…..
As I said in an earlier post
No you didn't. Just in case you 'forgot' I have pointed out what you said for you.
I have noticed recently that you have said one thing and then later denied saying it or intimated that you said something else. I take it that you are seeking the attention. Won't be replying to any more of your drivel.
Ancient Citizen
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 15,712
What is undemocratic?Oh yes, how extremely democratic That is!
I thought you were a big promoter of democracy, but only it seems, when ensuring brexit happens by all means is concerned.
They've had one, and decided to stay in the union.
And because I am democratic, and that process resulted in this country expressing a wish to quit the EU, yes, wanting to ensure it happens is also democratic.
Of course they have movedI dont think the EU have moved. This deal will involve no border on the ire.... The same red line they have had all along.
And that is assuming it gets to the point you can call it a deal. I'd call it talks.
Talks that might break down (a highly likely option - especially once the detail starts to leak out) and then it has to get through the HoC where BoJo is widely despised and untrusted.
Will we leave on the 31st October - I think not.
Now I agree that where they have moved to is a place they have been before and that will be the crux of the Remainer argument - but they have moved from the much better position they have held for nearly 2 years back to the one they held previously - that is still movement
From a negotiating viewpoint they have started give up on their 'Ideal' outcome (May's deal) and look to ensure that their 'Fallback' one is secure (Boris's deal) whilst still hoping that they may get their 'Realistic' one (UK Remaining via a Revoke or Referendum).
I do not seek to portray this as a climbdown by the EU at all - I view this as being simply good sensible negotiating by the EU - they have been professional throughout and so much better than the UK
B
B
blueinsa
Guest
Nonsense I am afraid to have to tell you
I understand and accept that such offers have been 'known about' - but what is happening now is 'movement' from the EU from where they have recently been.
When preparing to commence negotiations both parties should establish their Idealistic, Realistic and Fallback target outcomes.
Well I say both parties - obviously only one did due to May and Robbins.
For the EU the one that is now emerging is indeed no worse for them that would likely have been considered their 'Fallback' outcome, but that is not where they have been - nor where they have expected to be recently.
They would have had a 2nd referendum leading to Brexit being binned off as their 'Realistic' outcome and fully expected to achieve that.
May and Robbins's fuck up though allowed the EU to reappraise their 'Ideal' outcome - having the UK for many years locked into the backstop and under full regulatory control - must have seemed like a 'too good to be true' outcome - and even better that Brexit simply being stopped. FFS they would have had a troublesome member totally neutered and under control for as many years as they want and no inconvenience to the EU.
May and Robbins's waste of the negotiating opportunity and time has properly fucked us over and left the UK now trying to 'row back' from the gains the EU has been gifted.
The EU will not have wanted to give up anything secured - why would they?
When you end up closing a deal at a position which you had thought had been lost - it feels like a win - even if that opportunity had been previously available - but tossed away.
I have said many times that it will be 'dressed up' to look like the EU has not conceded - and also that the UK has 'won' something - depending on the audience - again that is how these things work.
So no - I am not misreading it - I just understand how these can (should) work.
But is clearly true that the oft-repeated statement of:
"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they face the prospect of a viable No-Deal option - and the political will to use it."
has been proven right.
FFS all of us should be positive about this - there have been a good number of Remainers on here queuing up to declare themselves ready for a deal - as soon as they started to worry about No-Deal happening of course and not before.
The 'statesmanlike' things to do is to resist saying …………………… "I told you so' - but after some of the shit I have received on here from people that either have no understanding of these things or are just too pig-headed...…...
Busy with work most of yesterday but very much this.
Especially the everyone should be happy that a deal is now in sight bit!
Bless;-)It hasn’t, Johnson has just decided to go for something already on offer.
The Irish PM’s statement on him now being sure the UK wishes to get a deal further backs this up.
No Deal is almost impossible and therefore not a threat.
Hope you are feeling better - it is raining here
Bless;-)You have indeed. And you have always been wrong, and clearly still are, and sadly unable to see anything else.
Don't mind me if my confidence that I understand how these things work is not shattered by your opinion
Last edited:
What is undemocratic?
They've had one, and decided to stay in the union.
And because I am democratic, and that process resulted in this country expressing a wish to quit the EU, yes, wanting to ensure it happens is also democratic.
More the point of gift from the PM, the idea he should refuse one, and that nobody south of the border cares.
Im sure he Could try to refuse btw, and maybe even would. but that would only feed it further. Do you really think he Should?
the SNP do have a mandate, and the numbers.
(Note btw, i have never claimed that i think there is enough desire amongst scots for Scotland to go independent. Just that i think brexit will strengthen the case, rather than killing it off, which i find a perverse interpretation.)
What Cameron promisedYou and the other (no-deal made it all possible) guy keep using the word 'genuine'
Brexit, or words to that effect? what does that represent to you? is the prospective deal currently mooted genuine to you?
The UK leaves the EU, including the SM and CU
So yes (with a possible temporary concession on N.I.)
I did say that I was not counting them....I would put them chickens back because there is no smoke coming from the chimney yet, plenty of rumours about Johnson moving back towards May's deal.
No Deal never has been bargaining chip, you cannot logically classify something that will do more damage to yourself that the party trying to cut a deal with. The misunderstanding that No Deal is like veto or just walking away its not in the case.
There is a long way to go on this and the mood music has changed slightly but we have been here too many times before.
I am just celebrating Tusk rowing back and the EU having moved - so there is now the potential for a deal to be made
Really - love to hear how you think that would come aboutIn the UK parliament I most definitely agree, I suspect the Scots will be seceeding from the UK when we leave.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.