Another new Brexit thread

[Ancient Citizen]

The cake and eat it solution, Thought it was a Union of equals. So any part can leave when it wants, why should any part need the permission of England, or any of the other parts of the Union.

It can leave when it wants, it tried to and didn't do.

 

[Gabriel]

Not really, the Scots were granted a referendum and voted in it to stay. The UK had one and voted to leave the EU, there is no equivalence in the EU agitating to deny that, the UK accepted the Scottish result, it didn't ask them to do it again.
Sometimes, 'Once in a lifetime' has to be accepted.

Seem to recall it was once in a generation, not once in a lifetime, though with our peculiar and particular lifestyle choices, it’s sometimes difficult to distinguish the two, alas. ;-)

 

[blueparrot]

It can leave when it wants, it tried to and didn't do.

And may well try again, the result will probably depend entirely on the Brexit outcome.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Seem to recall it was once in a generation, not once in a lifetime, though with our peculiar and particular lifestyle choices, it’s sometimes difficult to distinguish the two, alas. ;-)

Lol, yes, lifestyles do feature in this, deep fried mars bars may adjust parameters somewhat.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Ah so the referendum was a "gift". Nice how it's all turned out

I'd like to think you're not being deliberately obtuse, but in tbe gift of, is not literally a gift ;)

 

[Metal Biker]

He does, if the Scottish parliament passes the motion for one. In which the snp, along with the geeens, have the numbers, and the mandate, as it was in their 2016 manifesto.

It would be catastrophic if he were to say no, for democracy. The equivalent to the EU saying the UK cant Brexit.

Particularly if the deal sets a precedent of NI defacto remaining in the EU.

Has to be approved by the UK Parliament as well, first.

 

[BobKowalski]

How exactly have the EU moved????

If what is being reported is true, the EU have not moved at all and Boris has made the huge concession of offering up NI. No wonder Leo was very happy with the progress. A step closer to a United Ireland.

In offering NI, Boris has removed the red line May had during negotiations of keeping the Union intact. A red line that was demanded by her own party and obviously the DUP. May must be spitting feathers!

The EU has to have ‘moved’. It has to have moved because of the threat of ‘no deal’. This is important as it fits into the Leave narrative that the EU is ‘weak’ and that the EU ‘needs’ the UK more than we need them so any movement in negotiations has to fit this narrative. Conversely if the UK moves or agrees to an ‘inferior’ deal it’s because of ‘sycophants’ and ‘traitors’ within. It’s not that the EU has more leverage it’s because we defeated ourselves which keeps the belief alive that we are naturally stronger.

The Benn Act is a ‘surrender Act’ because it betrays our natural strength in the negotiations. May’s Withdrawal Agreement was a surrender document and was portrayed as having been dictated by Merkel to May and ‘her creatures’. One of the reasons why the WA was so unnacceptable was this perception it was shaped by the EU and ‘imposed’ on us which to many is intolerable. To them its imposition was due to the ‘weakness of elites’ at the top who are in thrall of the EU.

We form a world view and then confirm reality to that world view. We can quote Cameron as promising that leaving the EU also meant leaving the SM and CU as if it was a positive campaign pledge not a warning that this could happen. Actual Leave campaign pledges are now ignored. They have been airbrushed out of consciousness.

You have the Govt running a taxpayer ad campaign advising/warning/threatening that we will leave on 31st Oct. They also run ads simultaneously telling us there will be more red tape and expense in our interactions with Europe and also trumpet the benefits of Brexit as being less red tape and more freedom whilst removing our freedoms.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Is the level of Scottish trade with the rest of the UK a fact or opinion

What about their dependency on the UK to pay welfare benefits?

What about the border that would have to be controlled and Scotland will be responsible for

etc etc.

Nah - I just understand and objectively assess the facts - give it a try

Tell me the top 5 reasons why you feel the UK should not leave the EU

You forget that you laid your argument on why Scotland will not leave the U.K. out in some detail for me a month or so ago. It was stuffed with opinion.

I have consistently posted on here why I think the U.K. should not leave the EU so I’m not about to go through it again. However, one of the top reasons I ticked the box for Remain was the effort, money and change management skills necessary to make Brexit happen successfully over many years coupled with the competence and bandwidth of our political system to cope with it in parallel with the other serious issues that need to be addressed in the U.K. I happened to think that addressing inequality and poverty, climate change and investing in public services including the NHS were far more important than Brexit. Coupled with that, I didn’t know which version of Brexit I was being asked to consider by the charlatans and liars that were promoting it and the complete lack of an implementation plan or approach made me fear that they didn’t actually know what we were doing.
That turned out to be project fear didn’t it?

 

[George Hannah]

.Discredited you say, not a snapshot you say. Okay

I've expanded my reasons in the OP before your reply. From the point he claimed that a FPTP process didn't allow "for a 100% of the spoils" Sumption showed his true colours. I placed my faith in him and Rory Stewart as rational guides in this morrass but they both turned out to have feet of clay.

 

[mcfc1632]

More the point of gift from the PM, the idea he should refuse one, and that nobody south of the border cares.

Im sure he Could try to refuse btw, and maybe even would. but that would only feed it further. Do you really think he Should?
the SNP do have a mandate, and the numbers.

(Note btw, i have never claimed that i think there is enough desire amongst scots for Scotland to go independent. Just that i think brexit will strengthen the case, rather than killing it off, which i find a perverse interpretation.)

There is the key difference between our opinions......

I can and do fully agree that the act of leaving the EU has and will increase the 'appetite' and 'passion' amongst an increased number of Scots to Leave the UK - so, for the avoidance of doubt, I do not dispute this.

But that is not the argument I am making nor a counter to the 'facts' that 'in my opinion' will see the NO vote returned with a greater majority than before.

The likely outcome might even fuel an increased sense of grievance as the passions are inflamed but commonsense forced acceptance of remaining in the UK - it could well feel like an increased sense of injustice brought about by self-determination - which will be very frustrating.

But you do not need me to convince you - you can do it for yourself

What are, in your opinion, the key reasons put forwards by Remainers that the UK should not Leave the EU?

1. Balance of existing trade is certainly one

2. Proximity to most important markets would be another

3. Freedom of movement across the Union would probably be included

4. Sheer costs of the divorce settlement?

5. Length of time to secure an FTA

6. Costs and difficulties in managing borders?

7. Unravelling so many years of integration?

etc. etc.

Now, turn that around and apply those examples - and many more - to the difficulty for Scotland to leave the UK - once the UK has left the EU.

But the appetite and passion to one side and think it through

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

l I understand your point and concede, that technically, you're right

The best kind of correct I assure you ;)

 

[blueinsa]

The English ‘grant’ and ‘allow’. But they do not ‘feed’ Scottish nationalist sentiment.

Priceless.

Yet years of grant and allow in the case of the EU to us has been applauded Bob.

You dont think that hasn't fed leave voters determination?

 

[Ban-jani]

Bless;-)

Hope you are feeling better - it is raining here

I’m looking forward to the rain!

 

[yerwot?]

The 4 brexiteers, bandwidth bandits united under the "bull shit baffles brains" mantra
Save the planet and stick to "we won you lost" everything else is just "hey look at me"
and transparent propaganda for the brexit con .....

 

[blueparrot]

Yet years of grant and allow in the case of the EU to us has been applauded Bob.

You dont think that hasn't fed leave voters determination?

No because the EU did not grant or allow the UK to leave the EU. It didn't even need to grant or allow a referendum for it, the government of the day was free to invoke A50 anytime it liked as can any member.

 

[Metal Biker]

The cake and eat it solution, Thought it was a Union of equals. So any part can leave when it wants, why should any part need the permission of England, or any of the other parts of the Union.

It doesn't work like that. We've combined our Parliaments.

When England gets its own Parliament your words might hold more meaning. No part (with the exception of NI) can "leave when it wants" without the UK Parliament first ratifying it. Our union is, as you said, equal, so we in England and Wales have an "equal say" in whether Scotland wishes to leave the union and break up our country.

If we all say no, your referendum will not be supported by the other "equal" members of the British Union. The 2016 indyref came about because England, Wales and NI agreed that the people of Scotland would be allowed to determine whether it wanted to remain in the UK Union, or become independent, and wouldn't stand in its way if it was determined to be the case.

YOU'RE talking about "a cake and eat it" solution; England and Wales have no say on whether Scotland can leave a Union where every voice is equal?

 

[mcfc1632]

You forget that you laid your argument on why Scotland will not leave the U.K. out in some detail for me a month or so ago. It was stuffed with opinion.

I have consistently posted on here why I think the U.K. should not leave the EU so I’m not about to go through it again. However, one of the top reasons I ticked the box for Remain was the effort, money and change management skills necessary to make Brexit happen successfully over many years coupled with the competence and bandwidth of our political system to cope with it in parallel with the other serious issues that need to be addressed in the U.K. I happened to think that addressing inequality and poverty, climate change and investing in public services including the NHS were far more important than Brexit. Coupled with that, I didn’t know which version of Brexit I was being asked to consider by the charlatans and liars that were promoting it and the complete lack of an implementation plan or approach made me fear that they didn’t actually know what we were doing.
That turned out to be project fear didn’t it?

With respect - and I am not seeking an argument - I can understand all that irritation with Brexit - although I of course do not agree - that is not really addressing what we have just discussed.

So try facts

I have just listed some for @Coatigan - try applying them to Scotland/UK and you see where by logic comes from.

You will also see that I suggest that it will increase frustration and a sense of injustice - even though (I believe) it will return an increase NO vote

 

[BobKowalski]

Yet years of grant and allow in the case of the EU to us has been applauded Bob.

You dont think that hasn't fed leave voters determination?

The member states run the EU. The member states set the rules. We were a member state. The only ‘grant and allow’ was national Govt hiding behind Brussels for decisions it agreed with. A deception that finally bit the Tories in the arse.

 

[mcfc1632]

* UK leaves EU
* Scotland's holds independence referendum
* Scotland votes to leave the UK and applies to join the EU

Hmm - good theory - see recent posts to @Coatigan and @Saddleworth2 - for the more practical issue which likely means that your 3rd point does not happen

Hey - I don't have a position on this - I am English. This is a matter for Scottish self-determination - I am just posting some facts

 

[blueparrot]

It doesn't work like that. We've combined our Parliaments.

When England gets its own Parliament your words might hold more meaning. No part (with the exception of NI) can "leave when it wants" without the UK Parliament first ratifying it. Our union is, as you said, equal, so we in England and Wales have an "equal say" in whether Scotland wishes to leave the union and break up our country.

If we all say no, your referendum will not be supported by the other "equal" members of the British Union.

In that case it can't be equal as England will always have more Mps and control parliament.