Another new Brexit thread

[Mike D]

From the details I’ve heard both sides have compromised and NI are to be offered the cake and eat it option. The DUP would be mad to reject this.

This is the same DUP that is anti gay anti abortion they are serious fruitcakes and capable of anything

 

[Coatigan]

Oh don't worry, i'm not saying that they should be blocked. Merely pointing out that reality that it requires the acceptance of all members of the Union for a member to leave, not that a member can leave willy-nilly, as was beign suggested. People can argue the chances of the other members attempting to block it or say no, but that's not the point i'm raising.

Nobody suggested that. I fully acknowledged that the PM could 'refuse' a referendum. my point was, that one Shouldn't.

 

[hgblue]

Oh don't worry, i'm not saying that they should be blocked. Merely pointing out that reality that it requires the acceptance of all members of the Union for a member to leave, not that a member can leave willy-nilly, as was beign suggested. People can argue the chances of the other members attempting to block it or say no, but that's not the point i'm raising.

I agree, but in practice it’s completely unsustainable for a member to be kept in a union against their will, so the Scottish people should have a referendum every year if they want one. If the Scottish people don’t want to be part of our union, I’d actually prefer it if they left.

 

[Metal Biker]

Nobody suggested that. I fully acknowledged that the PM could 'refuse' a referendum. my point was, that one Shouldn't.

My response wasn't to you, either. It was to the one making those suggestions.

 

[Coatigan]

Yeah of course, brexit has fuelled the nationalists, on both sides of the debate, but my view is that, for the SNP, they were looking for any excuse to reignite their cause for independence.

My initial cause to comment was on the idea that "England rules Parliament", when England doesn't have a Parliament of it's own, and it's MP's represent their constituencies, and also the belief that "if Scotland has a referendum, it can leave". It can't, not without the consent of its other, equal members of the Union. Only NI has that automatic right to leave if they chose to do so in a referendum that could neither be blocked or opposed by the UK Government and Parliament.

It's another example of typical anglophobic scot nat ramblings claiming England controls what the UK does, which hypocritically, is the exact same argument those who support brexit say about the UK's position in the EU Parliament; with the UK being Scotland and the EU being Westminster; many of us feel our voices aren't being heard. Yet they reject UK independence claims under that premise, but oppose the UK union and support Scottish independence by the same example.

1st paragraph. i agree.

2nd paragraph. valid point that i fully recognise, but by sheer numbers, england/english MPs control the UK. not claiming this as right or wrong, just the mathematics of the reality, or the reality of the mathematics.

3rd paragraph. i never said otherwise. glad you acknowledge that. Calling it angliphobic though, is the equivalent to calling brexit racist and xenophobic.

 

[Metal Biker]

I agree, but in practice it’s completely unsustainable for a member to be kept in a union against their will, so the Scottish people should have a referendum every year if they want one. If the Scottish people don’t want to be part of our union, I’d actually prefer it if they left.

I know, I agree, and I wasn't arguing that.
I was merely highlighting that fact that unless the UK Parliament agrees, a member cannot leave on their own will.

 

[hgblue]

This is the same DUP that is anti gay anti abortion they are serious fruitcakes and capable of anything

They could decide to scupper this deal, but where do they go from there?

 

[hgblue]

I know, I agree, and I wasn't arguing that.

Fair enough.

 

[Metal Biker]

1st paragraph. i agree.

2nd paragraph. valid point that i fully recognise, but by sheer numbers, england/english MPs control the UK. not claiming this as right or wrong, just the mathematics of the reality, or the reality of the mathematics.

3rd paragraph. i never said otherwise. glad you acknowledge that. Calling it angliphobic though, is the equivalent to calling brexit racist and xenophobic.

Then that's your presumption that every single English based MP in Parliament is a flag-waving England first type, and they aren't. Many see themselves as a British MP, not English, respect the wishes of the entire union and all it's members and are not acting wholly on an Englishcentric mentality.

As for the SNP MP's, however...

P.S. hmmm, equivalent to calling brexit voters xenophobic and racist"... You have been paying attention to remainer rhetoric these past 3 years, haven't you?

 

[Coatigan]

They’ve already lost, they should get over it.

They did (sure, some didnt), brexit is changing that.

 

[Ban-jani]

They did (sure, some didnt), brexit is changing that.

I was being ironic.

 

[Coatigan]

I was being ironic.

M'bad.

 

[blueinsa]

The member states run the EU. The member states set the rules. We were a member state. The only ‘grant and allow’ was national Govt hiding behind Brussels for decisions it agreed with. A deception that finally bit the Tories in the arse.

Naive and no one believes that line any longer Bob.

Your rules based construct is anything but when it suits and it's no democracy.

 

[blueparrot]

They could decide to scupper this deal, but where do they go from there?

The DUP are more than happy going nowhere, just look at Stormont.

 

[Ban-jani]

Naive and no one believes that line any longer Bob.

Your rules based construct is anything but when it suits and it's no democracy.

I seriously suggest you read into the EU, after the 3 years this is poor from you.

The vast majority of the things that we didn’t vote with, which was 96% of things we did vote with by the way, over the last decade has been chemicals we can put in food.

The Tories wanted to put cancer causing chemicals into food for cost reduction and profit and the rest of the EU, mostly, voted against it.

Major political issues we have voted for and we have a veto for things we do not wish to go with.

The EU isn’t a perfect democracy by any means and there are issues, I don’t have a deep love for it and am happy to leave but it has done wonders for peace in Europe and it is a democracy.

The Council isn’t elected but it is fully accountable to the European Parliament, which is a fully representative elected body of MEPs, unlike the UK with our first-past-the-post system...

...The UK also isn’t a perfect democracy, we have the House of Lords and a Head of State alongside the above, who thankfully allows democracy to take place.

But the UK is fundamentally a democracy too.

The EU needs to really improve its transparency but to call it not a democracy is entirely false.

 

[lancs blue]

We’ve not given up NI, they stay part of the UK and remain part of the UK customs union. The compromise is that any customs checks will take place at the GB/NI border to protect the EU single market and remove the need for any customs checks on the island of Ireland. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I can see how that could work for goods transiting from RoI to GB via NI but what happens if the final destination of the goods from RoI is NI? If there are to be no customs checks on the island of Ireland then surely NI would be a de facto part of the EU customs union, wasn't that a red line at some point in this crackpot business?

 

[Metal Biker]

I can see how that could work for goods transiting from RoI to GB via NI but what happens if the final destination of the goods from RoI is NI? If there are to be no customs checks on the island of Ireland then surely NI would be a de facto part of the EU customs union, wasn't that a red line at some point in this crackpot business?

Only for a very, very small minority. The majority of everyone else is satisfied with this compromise.

 

[Ban-jani]

Only for a very, very small minority. The majority of everyone else is satisfied with this compromise.

None more so than Sinn Fein, I would imagine.

 

[hgblue]

I can see how that could work for goods transiting from RoI to GB via NI but what happens if the final destination of the goods from RoI is NI? If there are to be no customs checks on the island of Ireland then surely NI would be a de facto part of the EU customs union, wasn't that a red line at some point in this crackpot business?

NI would be in both customs zones simultaneously, hence cake and eat it. A very nice outcome for the people of NI which should satisfy both communities.

 

[The perfect fumble]

A week from now Parliament meets, Boris Johnson will not have a deal to present to the House and he will be forced to extend.

Everything that is happening now has to be seen in this light.

The new "positive" mood music, is the backdrop Johnson needs to make the inevitable extension more palatable to his supporters.

Johnson will attempt to sell the extension not as capitulation, but the necessary time frame required to break the impasse, now that his masterful diplomacy has carved a pathway to a possible Brexit deal.