Now thems is some facts. or inconvenient truths, i forget which one is trending.
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Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
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Now thems is some facts. or inconvenient truths, i forget which one is trending.
If it is a customs border in the Irish Sea then I can’t see it getting through parliament, I’m not sure it will get better conservative support than Mays did (I assume she’ll vote against it...)
I can’t believe that all of this and the amount of money wasted on no deal planning in order to keep it as a negotiating tactic has led to Johnson negotiating exactly what was on offer two years ago. Well, I can, but that is just staggering ineptitude if that’s the case.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it Did get tory support. And a few labour too. Fatigue/time pressure will replace political conviction at some point.
why do brexits think remainers should welcome any deal at all, just because the pantomime "no-deal" dragon is dead? Any deal will leave the vast majority worse off, that's the whole point of brexit Much closer integration and a move towards a federal europe, as an insurance against a far-right night-mare is the ideal outcome for the vast majority. With fptp, there is no chance of healing the split between left and right, good for one means bad for the other, always been like that, brexit has brought it into harsh reality. A referendum with every outcome understood and agreed beforehand is the absolute minimum, with third-party over-sight just to reassure us there would not be any "tinkering" with the truth like the last one. Obviously brexits will fight to the death to avoid a ref. "for the sake democracy" but really they know they will lose, and if it was anyone but corbyn in oppo, badly.
Personally, i'd pin my hopes on some reasonable deal, to avoid a further risk of a no-deal. Not necessarily immediately but in the longer term. Or an even more extreme right parliament for the next 5 years, with Johnson having the support he needs, And a harder Brexit. Not even mentioning Scotland this time (apart from just now).
The sooner we can get some deal, the sooner it can go to the confirmatory referendum, which i agree is a minimum must.
why do brexits think remainers should welcome any deal at all, just because the pantomime "no-deal" dragon is dead? Any deal will leave the vast majority worse off, that's the whole point of brexit Much closer integration and a move towards a federal europe, as an insurance against a far-right night-mare is the ideal outcome for the vast majority. With fptp, there is no chance of healing the split between left and right, good for one means bad for the other, always been like that, brexit has brought it into harsh reality. A referendum with every outcome understood and agreed beforehand is the absolute minimum, with third-party over-sight just to reassure us there would not be any "tinkering" with the truth like the last one. Obviously brexits will fight to the death to avoid a ref. "for the sake democracy" but really they know they will lose, and if it was anyone but corbyn in oppo, badly.
Also, wouldn't dare guess that they'd lose, and wouldn't bet on it.
Bless;-)
That isn't snide dismissal then. Ok.
you’ll be awoken by the sound of spitfires with trails of British colours filling the sky.
your next door neighbour will bring you some eggs and milk.
You will turn on your tv in black and white , showing the royals waving to a sea of cheering people.
You will be paid in shillings.
kids up chimneys everywhere and not a brown face in sight.
Everything will be glorious.
Rule Britannia!
Brexit means Brexit.
Wait, is that a time travel joke?
MillionMilesAway
Well-Known Member
Equally depressing is the fact that this will/already is being portrayed as a triumph for Johnson, and that the EU wilted in the face of a no-deal scenario, when in reality the precise opposite has actually happened.
Oh, I don't know. The EU have (reportedly) cravenly conceded that Johnson can move the customs border to the middle of the Irish Sea, against at least one of the red lines previously drawn. That's how it works, right?
Ifwecouldjust.......
Well-Known Member
Varadkar making sure we all know who to blame if it all goes tits :)
‘Leo Varadkar says he was assured by Boris Johnson last week that the proposed Brexit deal would get through the House of Commons’ @virginmedianews
Also according to the FT the DUP are haggling over how much Danegeld they will get for selling out.
It'll be much more than the £1 billion bribe of taxpayers cash that it took last time. Someone should remind them of the story of Judas and the 30 pieces of silver
Ifwecouldjust.......
Well-Known Member
Oh I don’t know.
It certainly focused minds.
Boris and the DUP both seem more inclined to scramble for a deal with the prospect of No Deal looming.
DUP even talking of getting the Assembly up and running quickly.
Surely the other parties wont attend whilst Arlene Fosters at the table?
dave_blue12
Well-Known Member
It is clear the twats that lead us into this mess had no understanding of what they were doing. Ignorant self entitled posh boys who don’t think that the rules apply to them.
Rascal
El Presidente
I have been reading about the crisis of 1914, a crisis that almost brought the UK to the brink of Civil war. It took the outbreak of World War One to stop it. Similar to today's problems the status of Ireland or parts of, was at the heart of the issue. Herbert Asquith wrote that WW1 took away attention from Ulster......which he saw as a good thing.
One thing struck me, and I have never considered it this way in a modern context, in todays world Leavers deny the democratic legitimacy of Parliament, whilst Remainers deny the democratic legitimacy of the Government.
We are concentrating so much on what happens with the EU we are not noticing what is actually happening within the UK. Leave and Remain are the two ends of a tug of war over the EU, but equally as important they are the two ends of a tug war over where UK democratic legitimacy actually lies.
What the consequences of those tug of war's will be who knows, but one thing for certain is things will never be the same again. Whether you see that as good thing or not I suppose it depends on how you voted.
One thing struck me, and I have never considered it this way in a modern context, in todays world Leavers deny the democratic legitimacy of Parliament, whilst Remainers deny the democratic legitimacy of the Government.
We are concentrating so much on what happens with the EU we are not noticing what is actually happening within the UK. Leave and Remain are the two ends of a tug of war over the EU, but equally as important they are the two ends of a tug war over where UK democratic legitimacy actually lies.
What the consequences of those tug of war's will be who knows, but one thing for certain is things will never be the same again. Whether you see that as good thing or not I suppose it depends on how you voted.
That isn't snide dismissal then. Ok.
No, it’s just being able to come back on my post, that’s what it is.
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blueinsa
Guest
I have been reading about the crisis of 1914, a crisis that almost brought the UK to the brink of Civil war. It took the outbreak of World War One to stop it. Similar to today's problems the status of Ireland or parts of, was at the heart of the issue. Herbert Asquith wrote that WW1 took away attention from Ulster......which he saw as a good thing.
One thing struck me, and I have never considered it this way in a modern context, in todays world Leavers deny the democratic legitimacy of Parliament, whilst Remainers deny the democratic legitimacy of the Government.
We are concentrating so much on what happens with the EU we are not noticing what is actually happening within the UK. Leave and Remain are the two ends of a tug of war over the EU, but equally as important they are the two ends of a tug war over where UK democratic legitimacy actually lies.
What the consequences of those tug of war's will be who knows, but one thing for certain is things will never be the same again. Whether you see that as good thing or not I suppose it depends on how you voted.
Interesting post as always mate although from my own point of view my argument is not to deny the legitimacy of parliament, just to insist they honour the pre ref promises that they would honour the result after they had effectively relinquished their sovereign power to the people.
It was our decision they said.
Parliament has cause the shit show, not the vote and the last 3 years have been an utter disgrace. They could have said look, we dont like it but we said we would leave if that was the wish of the people and got on with it or they could have said fuck the vote, we dont like it and we are not going to leave and we will take our chance with the electorate afterwards.
They have done neither with booth sides blaming the other and it has turned into an issue that some see as an opportunity to power grab or further their own independence.
I stand by my position of the last three years and that is we voted to leave and if we dont then our democracy is dead and we might as well no longer bother.
I have been reading about the crisis of 1914, a crisis that almost brought the UK to the brink of Civil war. It took the outbreak of World War One to stop it. Similar to today's problems the status of Ireland or parts of, was at the heart of the issue. Herbert Asquith wrote that WW1 took away attention from Ulster......which he saw as a good thing.
One thing struck me, and I have never considered it this way in a modern context, in todays world Leavers deny the democratic legitimacy of Parliament, whilst Remainers deny the democratic legitimacy of the Government.
We are concentrating so much on what happens with the EU we are not noticing what is actually happening within the UK. Leave and Remain are the two ends of a tug of war over the EU, but equally as important they are the two ends of a tug war over where UK democratic legitimacy actually lies.
What the consequences of those tug of war's will be who knows, but one thing for certain is things will never be the same again. Whether you see that as good thing or not I suppose it depends on how you voted.
Democratic legitimacy lies wherever one's confirmation bias needs it to, to enforce a predetermined position. And i by no means exclude myself from that.
Interesting post as always mate although from my own point of view my argument is not to deny the legitimacy of parliament, just to insist they honour the pre ref promises that they would honour the result after they had effectively relinquished their sovereign power to the people.
It was our decision they said.
Parliament has cause the shit show, not the vote and the last 3 years have been an utter disgrace. They could have said look, we dont like it but we said we would leave if that was the wish of the people and got on with it or they could have said fuck the vote, we dont like it and we are not going to leave and we will take our chance with the electorate afterwards.
They have done neither with booth sides blaming the other and it has turned into an issue that some see as an opportunity to power grab or further their own independence.
I stand by my position of the last three years and that is we voted to leave and if we dont then our democracy is dead and we might as well no longer bother.
Agree with all apart from the last paragraph, as obviously we are on different ends of the democracy tug. In the long term that is.
Its not undemocratic to be asked again.
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blueinsa
Guest
Agree with all apart from the last paragraph, as obviously we are on different ends of the democracy tug. In the long term that is
Its akin to Westminster saying yes to a second indy ref in Scotland and Yes winning only for Westminster to then argue for three years and basically refuse to carry out the result.
How would you feel about that?
As a democrat who would vote no in that ref i would be fucking livid, enough so to campaign that we must leave because to not do so harms our democracy beyond repair.
I cant quite get my head around just how many people are willing to ignore a democratic vote i honestly cant?
It is clear the twats that lead us into this mess had no understanding of what they were doing. Ignorant self entitled posh boys who don’t think that the rules apply to them.
The sheer volume of bare-faced lies is unbelievable, the fact this **** is in a Cabinet position is a disgrace and the issue that many won’t see this for what it is is sad.
Its akin to Westminster saying yes to a second indy ref in Scotland and Yes winning only for Westminster to then argue for three years and basically refuse to carry out the result.
How would you feel about that?
As a democrat who would vote no in that ref i would be fucking livid, enough so to campaign that we must leave because to not do so harms our democracy beyond repair.
I cant quite get my head around just how many people are willing to ignore a democratic vote i honestly cant?
You can quote me on this when the time comes. I will absolutely welcome the chance to change my mind, or be asked again, once the dust settles. I've said as much before. And i have had time to put myself in that position and think about it.
I could explain why, but im sure you already know.
I'm not sure Asquith thought it was a good thing, just a small benefit of a very bad thing.I have been reading about the crisis of 1914, a crisis that almost brought the UK to the brink of Civil war. It took the outbreak of World War One to stop it. Similar to today's problems the status of Ireland or parts of, was at the heart of the issue. Herbert Asquith wrote that WW1 took away attention from Ulster......which he saw as a good thing.
One thing struck me, and I have never considered it this way in a modern context, in todays world Leavers deny the democratic legitimacy of Parliament, whilst Remainers deny the democratic legitimacy of the Government.
We are concentrating so much on what happens with the EU we are not noticing what is actually happening within the UK. Leave and Remain are the two ends of a tug of war over the EU, but equally as important they are the two ends of a tug war over where UK democratic legitimacy actually lies.
What the consequences of those tug of war's will be who knows, but one thing for certain is things will never be the same again. Whether you see that as good thing or not I suppose it depends on how you voted.
I'm not sure any government with a majority of minus 50 is legitimate.
aguerrrroooooooooooo
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So I've woke up, what's going on?
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