Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

I agree actually. I've always thought he was an oaf and a clown, but not a thick one.

And the few friends I have who live in London, to a man, rated him as Mayor.

He's played the dealt cards better than I could have imagined really. You have to remember he picked an impossible challenge and an unsquarable circle. That he may still get a deal done and even if not now, then pretty soon afterwards, is quite remarkable.

Not that impossible. The EU demanded three things. £39 billion, ECJ jurisdiction over EU citizens in UK for 8 years and no land border in NI. They have all three. According to the various tick-tocks on how this unfolded the key moment was the frank phone call with Merkel. That was when the penny dropped with the Johnson team that the EU wasn’t going to abandon Ireland or fold at the last minute. The phone call was leaked by the Govt in a mood of ‘a deal cannot be done’ which was when Johnson did would May could never do and that’s react quickly. Johnson abandoned his position and pivoted to an earlier version of the deal and do what had to be done as set out by Merkel. Either the entire UK was in the EU customs union or NI was by itself. We cut NI loose.

Unfortunately this decision will have far reaching consequences but that is being ignored in favour of obsessing whether there are enough votes in Parliament to pass this thing or not. Brexit seems to have eroded our capacity to see beyond next week. But that has been the case ever sense we embarked on this nonsense with neither a clue or a plan as to how to process Brexit.

 

[BobKowalski]

You could almost call it a surrender deal?
In fact, this deal actually gives up some sovereignty of part of the UK to the EU, so it wouldn’t be an exaggeration to call it a surrender. Ironic really.

It is the very definition of a surrender deal. We have surrendered economic control to the EU of part of our sovereign territory. And apparently this is fine. Remarkable stuff.

 

[Rascal]

I don’t think Labour MPs are voting with their conscience al all... well, hardly any of them anyway.. they under orders from Comrade Corbyn... they’d oppose anything the govt said.. even Remain I fear... the situation Is that bad.. a crying shame when you consider the wealth of knowledge we have, even in the commons..

I’m disgusted with the whole house... not sure we’ll easily recover from this

It is the job of Her Majesty's official opposition to oppose the Government and hold it to account. If the Government of the day tries to sidestep and bamboozle Parliament they have to always be opposed otherwise we become an elective dictatorship and the PM can act without impunity.

If Johnson had been more open and transparent, he may have well have got his deal through, but acting like he did it did not surprise me he was opposed because MPs simply do not trust a word that comes out of his mouth. The way he acted with the letters just shows his arrogance and childishness, why on earth would people support a PM who acts like he does.

Johnson is trying to turn the whole charade into a people v Parliament battle, that is dangerous, its the actions of a despot. I don't like Johnson at all, I think he is the wrong man for the job, he is arrogant, he lies and he is a narcissist who has made it all about him. I get you don't like Corbyn and I think Corbyn has played it wrong too. I posted the other night I thought it might be a good idea for Labour to support the deal, but if Johnson is still trying his little games then he has to be opposed. This is bigger than one man, and he is a man I am not even convinced is in favour of Brexit, he is just using Brexit as a means to end. That end is him being re-elected with a proper mandate, because it is always about him. He doesnt care about the country, he cares about Johnson.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Not that impossible. The EU demanded three things. £39 billion, ECJ jurisdiction over EU citizens in UK for 8 years and no land border in NI. They have all three. According to the various tick-tocks on how this unfolded the key moment was the frank phone call with Merkel. That was when the penny dropped with the Johnson team that the EU wasn’t going to abandon Ireland or fold at the last minute. The phone call was leaked by the Govt in a mood of ‘a deal cannot be done’ which was when Johnson did would May could never do and that’s react quickly. Johnson abandoned his position and pivoted to an earlier version of the deal and do what had to be done as set out by Merkel. Either the entire UK was in the EU customs union or NI was by itself. We cut NI loose.

Unfortunately this decision will have far reaching consequences but that is being ignored in favour of obsessing whether there are enough votes in Parliament to pass this thing or not. Brexit seems to have eroded our capacity to see beyond next week. But that has been the case ever sense we embarked on this nonsense with neither a clue or a plan as to how to process Brexit.

However Bob, there are two conflicting imperatives here and unfortunately one of them has to go, or at least be compromised.

We cannot simply ignore the result of a democratic referendum mandating that we should leave the EU. And it was entirely obvious that control of immigration was at the very core of that entire debate and it would be a total betrayal to implement a Brexit with open borders. This rules out CU membership and then we are stuck with the compromise currently on the table.

Is it perfect? No. But none of the options are perfect. MPs need to reflect upon the fact that the perfect solution does not exist, and the Johnson deal is about as good as it gets. Unless you just want to can the whole thing, which we just CANNOT do.

 

[mcfc1632]

I accept that Boris is hated on here so being positive about him isn’t going to be popular, but he’s played an absolute blinder. Made those who said he didn’t want a deal look foolish, and confounded those who said he couldn’t get a deal. He’s appeased Leavers by improving May’s WA from a Leave perspective and appeased Remainers by negotiating a deal. He’s made great progress on the domestic agenda and earned the respect of fellow leaders like Varadkar and Macron, who have found him thoughtful and capable of compromise. The nation is going to be outraged by the goings on today and won’t blame Boris when the extension is requested. In short, exactly what I was hoping for when he was elected.

I suspect at the heart of a lot of the bile aimed towards Johnson is a need by posters to avoid these sorts of inconvenient truths

They were confident that Brexit had been consigned to failure and that confirmation of Remaining was just a matter of time

All of a sudden his appointment has led to it becoming a rekindled possibility against all the odds and the challenges that Remainers were quick to exult about as they emphasised that he had no chance

And they were utterly wrong - in the ways you mention and many others

Spouting bile about Johnson and denying the facts of what has been achieved is just more palatable, although IMO it shows highly dubious character if people cannot just accept the truth of what has been achieved - even if it was not what they wanted.

 

[stonerblue]

Can someone tell me what the fuck is going on? Not you mcfc138546 as i wanna get back to bed sharpish. Cheers

 

[west didsblue]

However Bob, there are two conflicting imperatives here and unfortunately one of them has to go, or at least be compromised.

We cannot simply ignore the result of a democratic referendum mandating that we should leave the EU. And it was entirely obvious that control of immigration was at the very core of that entire debate and it would be a total betrayal to implement a Brexit with open borders. This rules out CU membership and then we are stuck with the compromise currently on the table.

Is it perfect? No. But none of the options are perfect. MPs need to reflect upon the fact that the perfect solution does not exist, and the Johnson deal is about as good as it gets. Unless you just want to can the whole thing, which we just CANNOT do.

The whole thing could be canned but the vested interests that are the biggest influence on many people’s opinions won’t let that happen. I’m talking about those that control the mass media. Because like it or not, the people who decide the editorial line of the Sun and Mail and their associated websites have more power than is healthy.

 

[mcfc1632]

Rees Mogg deliberately walking his son through protestors abusing him to make a point. Sick fuck.


Sadly that child will become his mini me with the same contempt of the plebs protesting.

Very poor

 

[mcfc1632]

Fuck me you have lost the plot.

Had that been Soubry you would have been up in arms.

Did she deliberately walk through protesters?

Well said - the need for haters to hate leads to an abandonment of commonsense and twisting of facts

 

[Rascal]

I suspect at the heart of a lot of the bile aimed towards Johnson is a need by posters to avoid these sorts of inconvenient truths

They were confident that Brexit had been consigned to failure and that confirmation of Remaining was just a matter of time

All of a sudden his appointment has led to it becoming a rekindled possibility against all the odds and the challenges that Remainers were quick to exult about as they emphasised that he had no chance

And they were utterly wrong - in the ways you mention and many others

Spouting bile about Johnson and denying the facts of what has been achieved is just more palatable, although IMO it shows highly dubious character if people cannot just accept the truth of what has been achieved - even if it was not what they wanted.

Or people like me simply do not trust him because of his politics, his actions, his personality, his lies , his philandering and his history.

I think he is a dreadful choice for PM and can think of over 600 different MPs I would prefer to him. I do not believe he has the countries interests at heart because the only thing that matters to him, is himself.

 

[Vic]

Yeah but he would change the date, get rid of workers rights, sell out to the yanks, become Singapore on the Thames. I think it’s best to have a people’s vote and if we remain we can all be friends. If we vote leave then we should have a general election, if that means leave we should go to Rock Paper Scissors, if remain lose connect four, if remain lose again might be best for MPs to just vote revoke and we can revisit in 2087 if Labours six tests have been met.

Compromise at last.

 

[Rascal]

Can someone tell me what the fuck is going on? Not you mcfc138546 as i wanna get back to bed sharpish. Cheers

Quick version.

Its still a massive fuck up.

 

[hilts]

Look at the **** hilts, he's not one of us (and i don't know who you are either, but i'm guessing you weren't born with a withenshaw sized silver spoon up yer arse. but eh, you never know)

Wythenshawe that’s so common dear boy. I’m a gortonian and we were all born with silver spoons in our mouths, our dads nicked em. Come to think of it they were plastic:-)

 

[abu13]

Could the EU not bring this to a close by just refusing another extension?

They could argue that we have had over 3years to sort this, 3 PM's, 2 deals agreed with the EU already and is it 2 or 3 extensions already, if we can't sort our politics out then that is our problem.

Take the deal on the table now or fuck off, although i suspect they may be more diplomatic than this.

I struggle with the general election arguement as well, what if i agree with a parties stance on Brexit but nothing else? This seems a major and obvious flaw to me.

 

[Vic]

I agree actually. I've always thought he was an oaf and a clown, but not a thick one.

And the few friends I have who live in London, to a man, rated him as Mayor.

He's played the dealt cards better than I could have imagined really. You have to remember he picked an impossible challenge and an unsquarable circle. That he may still get a deal done and even if not now, then pretty soon afterwards, is quite remarkable.

He helped make the challenge impossible and the circle unsquarable. It still is. Are you really giving him credit for picking one of the EU's off-the-shelf solutions and making a mess even of that?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Or people like me simply do not trust him because of his politics, his actions, his personality, his lies , his philandering and his history.

I think he is a dreadful choice for PM and can think of over 600 different MPs I would prefer to him. I do not believe he has the countries interests at heart because the only thing that matters to him, is himself.

nail on head.

 

[Vic]

people seem to have lost sight of Parliament being the sovereign body in a democracy.

Tusk hasn't. Thank you for the letter asking for an extension, he says.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Get yourselves a written constitution that can only be altered by a referendum of the people, if you are going to hold a referendum.
Holding one in a parliamentary democracy with a question as vague as leave or stay was always going to end this way. Doesn’t sound vague, but just look how different everyone’s interpretations of leaving are.
Did I say end? It’s never ending.
Throw into that mix that you are a union within a union you are exiting from, one of which’s constituent parts is legally bound in another international treaty involving another country, Us..... This is a shit storm that has been unleashed and I can’t see it ending nicely for anyone.

You have to leave.
The only way I can see it happening is with the break up of the UK. Either NI leaves or possibly Scotland too, that’s their choice.

The fact that so many would gladly sacrifice NI should show those in NI what we have always known.

Yes this is a mess. The mother of all democracies eh?

Really don’t know how this will end but looking at yourselves and America currently and the future of Western democracy is not pretty.

Vladimir really likes this post.

 

[Rascal]

Dominic Raab on Marr, totally confusing high levels of employment with workers rights.

There is simply no correlation between them.

Marr as usual doesn't follow up and question his ridiculous statement

 

[Vic]

MPs have managed to thwart the government via political and legal means since the vote, they could have tried this when the details of the referendum was announced. The fact it was nonbinding but the government promised to enact the result whatever is why we are here, and surely that was legally challengeable. The politicians either missed it or didn't take enough care because they expected a different result. It is their problem to fix and they are still trying to solve it whereby they don't suffer.

... whereby the nation doesn't suffer.