Another new Brexit thread

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bugsyblue said:
Leavers will blame remainers for leaving Europe and thus making the country worse off... I mean I know some of you leavers are a special bunch but that would be pretty comical!
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Brilliant put down.

That's me told and put back in my box.
 
BobKowalski said:
Based on that logic I agree. But I would also appreciate some honesty about it. If this is all about immigration then we should just say so and if imposing internal borders within our own Union is the only solution then let’s say that instead of claiming ‘it’s a good deal for NI’ because if it is then the rest of would like some of that deal too and if we can’t have it then tell us why. Immigrants. And if Scotland say well we ain’t bothered by the immigration argument because we voted Remain so let’s have a slice of what NI is having then why are we going to say no you can’t? Precedent? Well that’s gone. Can’t be done? Ditto.

And how long will it take to get these new arrangements up and running? HMRC said 5-7 years when tasked with looking at it for May’s CU bespoke partnership. Transition is 14 months. It took us 6 years to roll out the Universal Credit system and its barely fit for purpose. Bearing in mind HMRC will also be be preparing the rest of the UK for different customs and trading arrangements with the EU and beyond if trade deals aren’t rolled over. And we are doing all this in 14 months?

And what are we obsessing over? Votes on whether we can ok a deal or not oblivious to the fact we still had to pass the bloody Act afterwards which the Letwin Amendment has thankfully brought back into focus. Not that the media noticed. All they can do is wank about Johnson sending three letters and not signing one as if it was some sort of masterstroke. Anything else like how transition is no where near long enough or how we have put up an internal border and compromised our own sovereignty or the liklihood of NI going up in flames seems to have escaped the media’s attention.
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We can hardly say, sorry NI but there's only a couple of million of you and you can't expect the tail to wag the dog, so i'm sorry this is not great for you, but I'm afraid you'll have to suck it up. That is of course the reality but no-one can publicly say that. And it is certainly true that it's a "good deal" compared to having no deal at all.

But regards this Letwin thing, it is indubitably true that holing your own ship below the water line is not the ideal preparation for any battle. And that's precisely what ruling out no deal does, when going into negotiations. Of course we don't want no deal and you have argued it's a weak or even a hollow threat. Of course we need them more than they need us, and not the other way around.

But nevertheless, it at least carries *some* negotiating edge. The EU most definitely do not want no deal and whilst we hold the position that we will not accept any old shite, and will walk away if we absolutely must, then the EU have some motivation to offer slightly better terms.

As soon as we remove the no deal option, they have no such motivation. In fact the very opposite: it becomes in their interest to offer us the very worst possible deal, safe in the knowledge that the only options available to us are either to accept it, or to effectively be tied to the EU and be bound by their rules forever.

Ruling out no deal is therefore completely idiotic.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I understand why you feel the way you do, and he’s probably going to get Brexit over the line, but at what cost? Maybe he’s correct in his statement (whether he actually believes it is another matter) that the only way the nation can begin to heal is by firstly leaving, but he’s been the principal protagonist in a process which has driven a huge wedge in our society, caused in no small part by his MO (mendacity and confrontation) throughout. He has been the leading actor within something which will divide our nation for at least a generation, and has set the tone for that via his approach, turbo-fuelled by his ambition to the exclusion of all other considerations. I don’t believe that is something to be commended, and nor will it leave the UK a better place than he found it, when he ended his vacillation and threw his hat into the Brexit ring.
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I suppose my feeling is that Boris comes in for a lot of over the top criticism because his opponents recognise that he’s a formidable operator. He was dealt a terrible hand by Theresa May, Brexit Party cashing in on frustration with her incompetence, Tory Party obliterated in the European election, opinion poll ratings through the floor, Brexit on it’s last legs, now just 3 months later, he stands on the brink of getting his deal through and has a comfortable lead in the opinion polls. This is an amazing achievement. Yes, some unconventional tactics have had to be used, but there are occasions in life when being nice, playing safe, gets you nowhere, and he was faced with a Remainer Parliament and speaker that were prepared to get down and dirty so he fought fire with fire.
If he gets this through, he ensures the mandate from the referendum is delivered and I agree with him that this nation will never begin to heal until this happens. We move on to the next stage, which is the agreement of a mutually beneficial best in class free trade deal with our friends and neighbours, and the relationships that have been built up with the likes of Varadkar and Macron can be built upon to ensure we learn the lessons of the last few years. By then, he will in my opinion have a workable majority so he can also focus on his domestic agenda and the country can move on.
Then we find out whether the predictions of doom and gloom about life outside the EU are accurate, and my view is that they will be proven to be false, as we put in place free trade deals with the growing economies outside the EU. The EU can crack on with it’s superstate without the unhelpful Brits getting in the way, and we can watch on with interest how that project pans out, and those who still long to be part of it can campaign to rejoin.
 
hgblue said:
I suppose my feeling is that Boris comes in for a lot of over the top criticism because his opponents recognise that he’s a formidable operator. He was dealt a terrible hand by Theresa May, Brexit Party cashing in on frustration with her incompetence, Tory Party obliterated in the European election, opinion poll ratings through the floor, Brexit on it’s last legs, now just 3 months later, he stands on the brink of getting his deal through and has a comfortable lead in the opinion polls. This is an amazing achievement. Yes, some unconventional tactics have had to be used, but there are occasions in life when being nice, playing safe, gets you nowhere, and he was faced with a Remainer Parliament and speaker that were prepared to get down and dirty so he fought fire with fire.
If he gets this through, he ensures the mandate from the referendum is delivered and I agree with him that this nation will never begin to heal until this happens. We move on to the next stage, which is the agreement of a mutually beneficial best in class free trade deal with our friends and neighbours, and the relationships that have been built up with the likes of Varadkar and Macron can be built upon to ensure we learn the lessons of the last few years. By then, he will in my opinion have a workable majority so he can also focus on his domestic agenda and the country can move on.
Then we find out whether the predictions of doom and gloom about life outside the EU are accurate, and my view is that they will be proven to be false, as we put in place free trade deals with the growing economies outside the EU. The EU can crack on with it’s superstate without the unhelpful Brits getting in the way, and we can watch on with interest how that project pans out, and those who still long to be part of it can campaign to rejoin.
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Excellent post that nails it for me as well.
 
hgblue said:
I suppose my feeling is that Boris comes in for a lot of over the top criticism because his opponents recognise that he’s a formidable operator. He was dealt a terrible hand by Theresa May, Brexit Party cashing in on frustration with her incompetence, Tory Party obliterated in the European election, opinion poll ratings through the floor, Brexit on it’s last legs, now just 3 months later, he stands on the brink of getting his deal through and has a comfortable lead in the opinion polls. This is an amazing achievement. Yes, some unconventional tactics have had to be used, but there are occasions in life when being nice, playing safe, gets you nowhere, and he was faced with a Remainer Parliament and speaker that were prepared to get down and dirty so he fought fire with fire.
If he gets this through, he ensures the mandate from the referendum is delivered and I agree with him that this nation will never begin to heal until this happens. We move on to the next stage, which is the agreement of a mutually beneficial best in class free trade deal with our friends and neighbours, and the relationships that have been built up with the likes of Varadkar and Macron can be built upon to ensure we learn the lessons of the last few years. By then, he will in my opinion have a workable majority so he can also focus on his domestic agenda and the country can move on.
Then we find out whether the predictions of doom and gloom about life outside the EU are accurate, and my view is that they will be proven to be false, as we put in place free trade deals with the growing economies outside the EU. The EU can crack on with it’s superstate without the unhelpful Brits getting in the way, and we can watch on with interest how that project pans out, and those who still long to be part of it can campaign to rejoin.
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I think that's pretty much how I feel. I do think leaving the EU is an idiotic idea which will damage the country irreparably for decades, if not forever however. But I am reconciled to the likelihood that for most of our 65m citizens, they will not notice. They will merely not be as well off as they would have been had we stayed. A few will be out of work, who would not otherwise have been. But overall, life will continue pretty much as normal for most people. And therefore we MUST get on with it, or this shite is NEVER going to go away.
 
hgblue said:
I suppose my feeling is that Boris comes in for a lot of over the top criticism because his opponents recognise that he’s a formidable operator. He was dealt a terrible hand by Theresa May, Brexit Party cashing in on frustration with her incompetence, Tory Party obliterated in the European election, opinion poll ratings through the floor, Brexit on it’s last legs, now just 3 months later, he stands on the brink of getting his deal through and has a comfortable lead in the opinion polls. This is an amazing achievement. Yes, some unconventional tactics have had to be used, but there are occasions in life when being nice, playing safe, gets you nowhere, and he was faced with a Remainer Parliament and speaker that were prepared to get down and dirty so he fought fire with fire.
If he gets this through, he ensures the mandate from the referendum is delivered and I agree with him that this nation will never begin to heal until this happens. We move on to the next stage, which is the agreement of a mutually beneficial best in class free trade deal with our friends and neighbours, and the relationships that have been built up with the likes of Varadkar and Macron can be built upon to ensure we learn the lessons of the last few years. By then, he will in my opinion have a workable majority so he can also focus on his domestic agenda and the country can move on.
Then we find out whether the predictions of doom and gloom about life outside the EU are accurate, and my view is that they will be proven to be false, as we put in place free trade deals with the growing economies outside the EU. The EU can crack on with it’s superstate without the unhelpful Brits getting in the way, and we can watch on with interest how that project pans out, and those who still long to be part of it can campaign to rejoin.
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Ah poor old Theresa. If only she had worked out that the best solution was to capitulate to the EU’s demands early on, including putting up an internal border between NI and mainland Britain, and hailing it a ‘tremendous deal’ she would have been acclaimed a hero by the Brexit supporting press.

Politics is a rough old game.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ah poor old Theresa. If only she had worked out that the best solution was to capitulate to the EU’s demands early on, including putting up an internal border between NI and mainland Britain, and hailing it a ‘tremendous deal’ she would have been acclaimed a hero by the Brexit supporting press.

Politics is a rough old game.
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She was a fucking idiot Bob, and you know it. Politics is a sales game, and she couldn't sell water to a dying man in the desert.

And on the issue of Boris' achievements, when he took over, I was pretty much writing the Tories off as a finished force, riven from top to bottom and inevitably to be decimated in the next election. However you look at it, from there to where we are now is a remarkable turnaround. He's waived the whiff of "no deal" in front of the noses of the likes of Francois and JRM, just enough to get them onboard, whilst at the same time not alienating the moderates. He's played the cards very well indeed.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Its the Parliament that the people voted for mate. Think thats Democracy.
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You would have a point if at the GE Labour had said they would not vote for any brexit deal the government brought and that the Lib Dems had said they would campaign for revoke and that numerous MP's would desert those manifesto promises and move party.
 
hgblue said:
I suppose my feeling is that Boris comes in for a lot of over the top criticism because his opponents recognise that he’s a formidable operator. He was dealt a terrible hand by Theresa May, Brexit Party cashing in on frustration with her incompetence, Tory Party obliterated in the European election, opinion poll ratings through the floor, Brexit on it’s last legs, now just 3 months later, he stands on the brink of getting his deal through and has a comfortable lead in the opinion polls. This is an amazing achievement. Yes, some unconventional tactics have had to be used, but there are occasions in life when being nice, playing safe, gets you nowhere, and he was faced with a Remainer Parliament and speaker that were prepared to get down and dirty so he fought fire with fire.
If he gets this through, he ensures the mandate from the referendum is delivered and I agree with him that this nation will never begin to heal until this happens. We move on to the next stage, which is the agreement of a mutually beneficial best in class free trade deal with our friends and neighbours, and the relationships that have been built up with the likes of Varadkar and Macron can be built upon to ensure we learn the lessons of the last few years. By then, he will in my opinion have a workable majority so he can also focus on his domestic agenda and the country can move on.
Then we find out whether the predictions of doom and gloom about life outside the EU are accurate, and my view is that they will be proven to be false, as we put in place free trade deals with the growing economies outside the EU. The EU can crack on with it’s superstate without the unhelpful Brits getting in the way, and we can watch on with interest how that project pans out, and those who still long to be part of it can campaign to rejoin.
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Then I guess to you, it’s been a price worth paying.
 
Chippy_boy said:
She was a fucking idiot Bob, and you know it. Politics is a sales game, and she couldn't sell water to a dying man in the desert.

And on the issue of Boris' achievements, when he took over, I was pretty much writing the Tories off as a finished force, riven from top to bottom and inevitably to be decimated in the next election. However you look at it, from there to where we are now is a remarkable turnaround.
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True enough.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Just the ones who’ve lied to the Queen.
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We have no proof he did because the conversation is private but lets pretend he did....

Shitty thing to do but as ever with this forum, those so up in arms over it would be the first to get rid of the fucking queen and call her a hanger on.

I cant cope with the double standards on here at times and that isn't aimed at you btw.
 
blueinsa said:
You would have a point if at the GE Labour had said they would not vote for any brexit deal the government brought and that the Lib Dems had said they would campaign for revoke and that numerous MP's would desert those manifesto promises and move party.
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Think Labour said a Brexit that protected jobs and workers rights. This one does neither of those things. Christ I never thought I would see the day that I was defending both the SNP and Labour. Its good to keep it fact based though don't you think? Lib Dems have always been a pro Remain party although they have hardened that stance as we approach another GE.
 
mcfc1632 said:
The vote will be whatever the Remainers consider to be sufficiently loaded to guarantee them the answer they want

They need to feel better about themselves so that they can hide from the inconvenient truths of their actions

Now this will be ridiculed by some Remainer posters - which in itself proves my point.

I am just holding up a mirror to their actions and would not be surprised if they find the reflection pretty ugly
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Poor effort.
 
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