Another new Brexit thread

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Ban-jani said:
It’s moved people in the UK certainly. The opposition have actually worked together to block it and you have people like me that want a deal over it, but I do think a deal over another referendum or revoking is probably the only way through now regardless.

I don’t think the EU have moved, they’ve moved because Johnson has taken something they put forward to us in 2016. They said to Johnson ‘you come to us with a proposal and we’ll consider it, if not it’s up to you to take the WA on offer or no deal’. Johnson buckled and took the Irish Sea border.
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I don't want to reopen the 'EU have moved debate' but will just say 2 things:

1. I can absolutely understand that the UK have moved to a position that the EU had previously offered. Unfortunately May's skills at negotiation and political nous led to her (I am sure much to the EU's amazement and gratitude) refusing that (due to being in hock to the DUP) and giving the EU something far more valuable to them.

2. That new position - May's all-UK unfettered backstop - became the EU's (much improved) position and it was set out in the WA that was agreed.

The EU really wanted that WA as it removed from the EU all and any risk to them of having an independent UK just off its shores and able to be a competitive. They therefore took the stance that the WA was closed and would not be reopened in any circumstance.

Given that the EU really really wanted the unfettered backstop and have decided to step back to a previous position is down to the fact that they faced a UK suddenly displaying a whole lot more backbone than previously and the risk of a No-Deal outcome suddenly became a genuine possibility.

It is - IMO - simply not worth discussing whether the EU moved or not - they stated with utter certainty that they would not reopen the WA and they have - so patently they have moved - from a better position for them to one that they are still happy enough with.

Your repeated stance is that you seem not willing to accept that simple fact and just want to repeat that this was a position previously proposed by the EU. Whilst that really has no relevance to the point being made - I can see why it is a place that some posters can feel to take refuge in.

Anyway, I will move on from that.

BTW - genuinely good to see your increasingly pragmatic view of things generally mate
 
BobKowalski said:
*cough* Benn Act. There is currently no ‘no deal’ pressure. What you are witnessing is pressure to get something done after almost three years. Fatigue and the fact we have run out of options leaving only the terms currently on the table.

Also Johnson pivoted from no deal to get a deal no matter what. So there’s that.
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*cough* missing the point - intentionally I would hope
 
Blue Hefner said:
In his defence, a constitutional expert was on the news this morning saying the vote is unlikely to be allowed. He’s not making this up as he goes along
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On this occasion I think that he is entirely correct

On other occasions he has clearly acted in a manner that is not impartial

Therefore he is clearly a failure in his role

I would hope that a) history recognises that fact after he is replaced by someone fit to undertake the role without obsessive self-interest and b) that any of the usual 'perks' that are bestowed on a departing speaker are withheld to ensure the point that he is not worthy of them is made
 
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jay_mcfc said:
This is a genuine question to leavers: If Labour won a GE in the next few months on a second referendum led campaign, what would you feel about that? Would it be democratic and fair enough or would you be seething?
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I stopped at Labour win a GE but thanks for the giggle.
 
Oh and there is this. Our unseemly haste not to scrutinise a Treaty is such we have to override Good Governance laws. Remarkable.

‘Remember CRAG? It's a fresh headache for the Govt's bid to pass the Brexit deal by October 31. The Constitutional Reform and Governance Act (2010) requires any treaty be laid before the House for 21 days before it can be ratified. The Brexit deal is such as treaty The Govt accept this, so I learn there is a clause in the WAB that specifically dis-applies it from the Brexit deal. So 21 days will be shrunk to less than 1 day. The bill will be published tonight, and ratification will begin with 2nd reading tomorrow afternoon. The Commons are unlikely to block the bill on this point, but I'm told the Govt is a little more worried about how the Lords will take it, who are "bound to kick up rough" about it, according to one Tory peer, being sticklers for these kind of things’ @TomNewtonDunn
 
jay_mcfc said:
This is a genuine question to leavers: If Labour won a GE in the next few months on a second referendum led campaign, what would you feel about that? Would it be democratic and fair enough or would you be seething?
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I would accept that to be a valid 'consequence of events' - and expect that would effectively be the end of Brexit.

I would not consider it to be affirmation of anything that could be 'democratic' - just simply what it is - the result of getting on for 4 years of shenanigans and duplicity by a party that has only see the issue as a path to get into power.

But - that will be that and a simple fact of life - so it would be time to move on
 
BobKowalski said:
Well hello. Is this letter saying that the Withdrawal Bill also needs Scottish and Welsh Parliament approval on devolved competences?

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He should reply saying he has heard them say they will vote against any deal so no.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Johnson pivoted??? You mean had his legs taken out from under him. With a resolute determination to get Brexit done by Oct 31, and Parliament stymieing "no deal" as an option, then his ONLY option is to pursue a deal as hard as he can, isn't it.

I don't know if you made your throw away line as an implied criticism of Johnson. Maybe I am being too touchy about it. But it does piss me off when people seem to want to criticize the bloke for absolutely anything and everything he tries to do. I mean the other day, people criticizing him for sending the letter to the EU FFS, when Parliament had compelled him to. WTF do they expect him to do in such circumstances???!
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You have every right to be pissed off

There has been widespread undermining of the UK position by Westminster and people want to exult in that - their choice I guess.

To make it worse they want to use that to - in some proper weird way - suggest that Johnson has failed

Unfortunately for that view - the views of the people that Johnson is interested in influencing are not going to be suckered by such games.

Whilst the haters will have a group gloat - the support for Johnson grows and what has happened at Westminster only improves that support and the chance of a GE victory.

I don't even like the bloke at all - but find myself smiling at how badly the haters are playing this out.
 
Gaudion M said:
I can't stand Corbyn but I disagree on how far away Labour are.

The next leadership contest will be nothing like the Momentum/Union engineered coronation of Corbyn. Momentum is a hugely pro remain group and they have the numbers in a Leadership contest - the various Unions are spilt on the brexit issue. It wont be a clear cut lefty candidate v's a blairite next time. The Brexit issue will be far more prominent and they will want someone who has a chance, if someone like Starmer was elected leader then Labour would be a completely different proposition overnight- I can see that happening even if Momentum back someone else.
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So - do you think that Corbyn or Starmer will be the Labour leader at the next GE?
 
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