Another new Brexit thread

[Blue Hefner]

 

[blueinsa]

Ha, the Brexiteers search for equivalence continues...

Uncomfortable viewing i know but their it is.

Awaits fake news and accusations its been the work of a Russian bot paid for by Banks.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Uncomfortable viewing i know but their it is.

Awaits fake news and accusations its been the work of a Russian bot paid for by Banks.

Only one of them is PM though :-)

 

[Coatigan]

Neither is support for remaining.

Neither is the desire for a united Ireland, scottish or welsh independence either, if we are all honest, but all including brexit can be bottled for another generation or so for moderation in favour of extreme pulls.

 

[George Hannah]

Dublin has okayed the 31st Jan extension and apparently Johnson and Corbyn are in talks about a new program motion for the bill.

death by a thousand amendments awaits

 

[aguero93:20]

Not Nigel fucking Farage, that's for sure. I'd have that twat tried for treason and hung drawn and quartered.

No, no, no. That's no use. You have to burn Tories alive and then scatter the ashes. Stops them coming back.

 

[adrianr]

You need to give more weight to the possibility envisaged in your third sentence. In those entirely likely circumstances one or more dissonant voices among the 27 will energise the Remain HoC majority to press the Bercow Revoke button to avoid No Deal.

Possibly. I think you're giving too much weight to the outcome you least want. See it all the time with football fans, thinking the main opposition will win all their games whilst we lose all of ours ;) At the moment I see little to suggest that a single or few dissonant voices will be energising anything, least of all revocation. The prevailing attitude feels like it's learning much more in the direction of rushing it, anything through, than stopping the process and starting from scratch. We'll have to wait and see, but if we do revoke I'll be the first on here to admit I was wrong.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I'm not intending to wind you up. I have always believed you don't make a promise unless evidence, facts, rational logic says you can deliver on it. A persons word is their bond. I am quite old fashioned that way. Johnson promises things he cant deliver. Not just occasionally but often. He even makes promises on things he can deliver and then doesn't (Irish Border).

I think you need to brush up on your understanding and use of the word "lie".

Broken promises are not always lies. Why did you not just highlight his broken promises? My guess is because you can't stand the bloke and it suits you to slag him off any way you can.

 

[mcfc1632]

and removing the whip from the 21 MP's...........there are so many mistakes made by the liar and his team

Sorry - that is really mistaken IMO

Everybody knows that there is an election coming - given all the difficulties that he will face should he win a small majority - just why the fuck would Johnson want MPs returned that he cannot reply on to back the government?

He needs to get shot (he has) - and replace them with people that will support key government policy - you know, the ones in the manifesto.

Be stupid of him to have any of these back after a GE

 

[yerwot?]

Revoke and GE sounds good to me.

The parties supporting leave can promise us years of never ending Brexit trade negotiations even assuming that the WA gets sorted quite quickly. Alternativelythey could promise No Deal and focus on restructuring the economy to become a low paid, high unemployment Brexitopia, with little industry and agriculture.


The remain supporting parties can focus on investment, public services, jobs, the NHS etc, because we wouldn't be living through years more of uncertainty like the last three.

Bring it on.

Sums up the situation to a tee, the first paragraph is the holy grail of thatcherism,
the second the sum of all their fears. Without the years of anti-eu rhetoric by the billionaire press barons, without the tory tactic of uncontrolled immigration stoking the racist fires, and the free hits afforded by lurid lies in press and media, and the fact that the opposition is "led" by an unelectable ideologue, brexit would not exist. A once in a life time opportunity to drag the country back into the hideous inequalities of the nineteenth century, a "prize" the tories will do anything to seize. Calling it "democratic" is the greatest piss-take in a 3 year barrage of weapons-grade piss-takes by the brexit cabal. Afuckingmen...

 

[Coatigan]

But do you recognise that there is no symetry between the Remain and the Leave position? The two sides are not equal. One side "lost" the referendum vote, the other "won".

We may not like this. We may argue it was badly framed, unfair, should never have happened, whatever. But none of that changes the fact that the country voted to Leave, they did not vote to Remain.

THEREFORE, if and when we leave (and I think it is when, btw) , the Remain side will reluctantly have to accept it. If we end up deciding to remain, the Leave side is entirely justified in NOT accepting it.

The last 3.5 years probably say otherwise. Absolutely, leave voters might not accept it, and perfectly within their right not to. The only way to tell is to ask again, with the specifics now known, rather than a one size fits all concept. And if that is still the case, then remain voters really have nothing to complain about, and neither do the extreme brexit aspire-bes.

 

[BobKowalski]

death by a thousand amendments awaits

Maybe but it makes sense. Johnson should have taken Corbyn’s offer last night rather than throwing his toys out of the pram. If we are not revoking we have to pass something and basically this is it but with provisions and safeguards Labour likes. Get both parties on board with a compromise deal on domestic issues and this can pass.

The big problem is NI. Westminster selling out NI is a big deal and will explode (ok bad choice of words) in everyone’s face.

 

[west didsblue]

Ah if only you worked in one of the media outlets.

That isn't the picture being painted for us. Sure, some might see through it. many will buy into what is plastered all over the place.

That's correct. The picture that most people see is the picture presented to them by the Sun, Mail, Express, Facebook and the talking heads on Breakfast TV. And that is likely to be enough to swing the argument however specious it is if it reinforces and justifies people's own personal subconscious prejudices.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Lots of things have changed since those quotes were taken. Some of the most obvious being the Tories lost their majority and as a result have not been able to agree on a position, Theresa May not involving the HoC on the process and position the UK wanted to take. The margin of victory being so close not really being reflected in May's approach and her being a terrible salesperson

On top of that, it was supposed to be an easy transition. We have also had the pound collapse, various solutions to the NI issue, potential tariffs etc.

In short, I am not a fan of quote videos like that as it suggests people cannot or should not change their minds

None of that justifies having another referendum IMO. We were told the pound would collapse. We were warned about the NI problem (although clearly not warned enough). We were warned about potential tariffs. All of this was in the air before the vote. And people voted as they did, knowledgable or not, misguided or not, thick as planks or not, racists or not. And yes people may have changed their minds, or not. (FWIW, increasingly I am of the opinion that actually it's swung back around to a Leave majority again.)

But we had the referendum, were told by everyone concerned we would honour the result and really that's all there is to it. We must leave, and politicians must determine how. And if this set of politicians cannot agree on how, then we need another set who can.

 

[mcfc1632]

Correct. Hillingdon, Uxbridge, Ruislip, ickenham - all places where folk would quite literally vote for a monkey in a blue suit.

You are right - I am down the road in Wokingham - John Redwood's constituency

Even though it is a Remain constituency and Redwood has 'gone against' that position - there is absolutely zero chance that the Conservatives will not win here

The threat of Corbyn totally dwarfs any risk that Brexit might introduce.

I have been saying for months that a lot of the UK-wide Remain vote will be dissipated in a GE in a manner that does not see Labour do well

In Scotland we know where that will go - but it makes no difference from 2015/17

In major cities we know where that will go - but it makes no difference from 2015/17

It is in the marginals that the GE will be won or lost. I can see the Remain vote splitting between LibDems and Labour - allowing the Conservatives to mop up and secure a working majority. It may be small so that is a good reason that they were right to purge the 21 dissenters - and ideally any others that cannot be relied upon on this major issue.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

All politicians lie. It's part of their job description. Anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously deluded. Here are some corkers from 3 years ago.

Yet all we hear is Johnson's a liar every 5 minutes.
I don't believe the public are going along with this constant narrative, we all know they all lie, it's
there in that compilation as plain as daylight.

 

[mcfc1632]

Many of them won't stand though, so the Conservatives will quite likely get a fair amount back.

I would be very surprised if more than 1 goes anywhere else other than Conservative. The exception is Hammond's seat - but even there the chances are good that the voters will back the official Conservative candidate.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The last 3.5 years probably say otherwise. Absolutely, leave voters might not accept it, and perfectly within their right not to. The only way to tell is to ask again, with the specifics now known, rather than a one size fits all concept. And if that is still the case, then remain voters really have nothing to complain about, and neither do the extreme brexit aspire-bes.

And what if remain wins? What would you suggest leave voters do then?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I'm not intending to wind you up. I have always believed you don't make a promise unless evidence, facts, rational logic says you can deliver on it. A persons word is their bond. I am quite old fashioned that way. Johnson promises things he cant deliver. Not just occasionally but often. He even makes promises on things he can deliver and then doesn't (Irish Border). He is a serial liar and not fit in any way to be Prime Minister of what was a proud nation.

Have you seen that video?

 

[George Hannah]

Possibly. I think you're giving too much weight to the outcome you least want. See it all the time with football fans, thinking the main opposition will win all their games whilst we lose all of ours ;) At the moment I see little to suggest that a single or few dissonant voices will be energising anything, least of all revocation. The prevailing attitude feels like it's learning much more in the direction of rushing it, anything through, than stopping the process and starting from scratch. We'll have to wait and see, but if we do revoke I'll be the first on here to admit I was wrong.

Revoke is the outcome I do want actually, it may seem perverse as a leaver but the current deal or a no deal are just too damaging for a variety of reasons. My objectives for independence from future EU integration can be now be best achieved by staying inside and finding a non A50 route out if political reform doesn't happen.