Another new Brexit thread

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Whilst we wait for our King across the sea to announce his decision on whether we Brexit or suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous externity, I was wondering if anyone actually liked the final terms (not you Arlene) of WA Mk II? The EU didn’t whistle for its money (yep Johnson again), did get 8 years of oversight on EU citizens and did avoid a land border in Ireland (yes I know Arlene it isn’t fair) by imposing a border within our own Union.

In return we got at least 3 years of transition which I understand our King across the water is looking forward to...or maybe he is just fishing in a sea of troubles. Who knows.

So do we actually like the deal so far and if so why?
 
Chippy_boy said:
I don't agree. I think we'll have a GE, I think Boris will win and I think Parliament will vote for an FTA and the ERG will have to suck up not getting their "clean break" and Labour will have to suck up not getting their customs union. (Which incidentally is an entirely unjustifiable aspiration since it would not take back control of our borders.) This impasse is caused by fuckwit May losing her majority. Had she not fucked that up, we'd have left already.
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Is that the pre October 2019 border or the new redrawn border?
 
BobKowalski said:
Is that the pre October 2019 border or the new redrawn border?
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Haha very funny.

The NI situation is sub-optimal, but there is no optimal, so sub will have to do. You know full well how significant the uncontrolled immigration issue is to many, many people. It would be entirely wrong IMO to implement a Brexit which made no changes whatsoever to our ability to limit numbers of migrants coming in from the EU. May was right to treat that as a red line. (Probably about the ONLY thing I can ever remember saying she got right.)
 
BobKowalski said:
Whilst we wait for our King across the sea to announce his decision on whether we Brexit or suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous externity, I was wondering if anyone actually liked the final terms (not you Arlene) of WA Mk II? The EU didn’t whistle for its money (yep Johnson again), did get 8 years of oversight on EU citizens and did avoid a land border in Ireland (yes I know Arlene it isn’t fair) by imposing a border within our own Union.

In return we got at least 3 years of transition which I understand our King across the water is looking forward to...or maybe he is just fishing in a sea of troubles. Who knows.

So do we actually like the deal so far and if so why?
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The only show-stopper for me in May's deal was the whole of the UK being locked in forever in the backstop, unable to get out of it without the consent of the EU. That's been removed, which makes in bearable. We've thrown the DUP under a bus, but 1.2m of their 1.8m are remainers anyway, who presumably are not too fussed about being more closely aligned with the EU. So not ideal, but no solution is.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I don't agree. I think we'll have a GE, I think Boris will win and I think Parliament will vote for an FTA and the ERG will have to suck up not getting their "clean break" and Labour will have to suck up not getting their customs union. (Which incidentally is an entirely unjustifiable aspiration since it would not take back control of our borders.) This impasse is caused by fuckwit May losing her majority. Had she not fucked that up, we'd have left already.
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It's funny how Leavers think Brexit should be the main issue in the next election but deny that Brexit was a factor in why May lost her majority in the last
 
Vic said:
Glad you recognise the superior intelligence of Remain voters (generally) but I'd be interested to know what these ulterior motives are.

Maintaining the union, keeping us from massive economic damage, giving a say to people too young to vote in 2016 who have to live with it, giving a democratic chance to change mind... Lots of motives, but what are the supposed ulterior motives?

(Obviously we allege tax avoidance and currency speculation and other stuff as ulterior motives for leave supporters; what do you see?)
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Whichever ones are expedient depending upon what day of the week it is of course. On Tuesdays it's economic damage, on Wednesdays is must rule out no deal. Thursdays is allowing young people a say; Fridays is old Leavers have died.

But on no day is it "We just want Brexit stopped" because that would appear undemocratic and might put off a voter or two. And that would never do, would it, Jeremy.

And apart from anything else, he really wants us to leave, but just can't say so. Weasel Jeremy.
 
Vic said:
It's funny how Leavers think Brexit should be the main issue in the next election but deny that Brexit was a factor in why May lost her majority in the last
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Yes but May was an incompetent, charisma vacuumed, idiot. Defend her if you like.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Regards this "take no deal off the table" bullshit from the wizened old bullshitter:

Can people not see what an utterly ridiculous request / suggestion that is? Let's put aside for one moment that the next Parliament will have a different disposition of MPs which will make up their own minds on what to accept / not accept. We'll park that enormous fly in his made up ointment for one moment.

But at the end of the transition period, the UK will be faced with 3 options. There are only 3 and can never be more than 3.

1. Accept the negotiated deal
2. Say sorry we can't accept the deal, but we don't want to leave without one so let's negotiate ANOTHER delay and try again.
3. Reject the negotiated deal and say sorry, we're off with no deal and WTO terms

Those are the ONLY options.

Corbyn would have us unilaterally remove option 3. Can people not see how utterly bonkers that is??? How on earth, do we expect to get a favourable outcome from an EU which does not want us to leave, if the EU knows that our only options are to accept whatever shitty deal they offer, or to stay in? Can anyone explain to me how that can possibly work, and how that can in any way be a good idea???

I am in sales and negotiate contracts with clients all the time. That's my job. How on earth would i maximise the revenue for my company if my opening line with procurement was "Let me just start by saying I do not have a walk away position, and i will accept any price you care to name"?

It is a total joke. The only people espousing this as a strategy can only be thick as pig shit, or have ulterior motives, like us never leaving at all.
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Just a gentle reminder ......Labour , through this demand, have put country before party ....i know thats a difficult concept in Tory world , but as I've said before if you want a General Election then bring it on ... most Labour members want that but we have to ensure that any damage caused by Brexit is minimised ... and there will be damage


So our policy is ..... allow a deal (that has been properly scrutinised and amended) to go to a vote.

If approved by Parliament , then it goes to the people ... with facts and information about how it will benefit them and the UK or not

A proper informed debate and vote.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Honestly, seriously, I just find it a bit pathetic and childish.

We may not like the 2016 referendum result. Surely you can recognise that I certainly did not and I still do not. It's not something I want and our leaving will impact upon me badly.

But we simply cannot, whatever the circumstances, hold a referendum the result of which all concerned say will be binding, respected and acted upon, and then turn around later and say "you know what, we're not sure you meant it, have another go". People can dress a second referendum up anyway they like to make it sound better. Call it a "Peoples' vote" FFS, say "if we'd know then what we know now, etc etc etc" But in reality it's a 2nd bite at the cherry for us Remainers who lost, and another hurdle for those who won already. It's not on.

Johnson, who if you've read my posts, I have never been a fan of, to his great credit has come in, shaken everything up, gained movement from the EU where they said there would be none, and somehow, has managed to tread the delicate line needed to get a very very slim majority in favour of *something*. Yes his tactics have been crass and bull in a china shop, but desperate situations call for desperate means. His holding everyone's feet to the fire about the end of October and the no deal threat, shook things up. It needed shaking up.

I can see this as a Remainer. I suspect in your heart of hearts you can see it as well. He's done a decent job, but your hatred of Tories and hatred of the Brexit result is a mist that seems to cloud all rational judgement.
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Rational judgment works both ways though, the precedents set in getting to this point are very worrying and the ends don’t always justify the means. I’d argue his tactics have been anything but bull in a china shop, all of this would have been thought through. The why is the important thing and that isn’t just about Brexit, it’s more intrinsic to the Conservative party.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Just a gentle reminder ......Labour , through this demand, have put country before party ....i know thats a difficult concept in Tory world , but as I've said before if you want a General Election then bring it on ... most Labour members want that but we have to ensure that any damage caused by Brexit is minimised ... and there will be damage


So our policy is ..... allow a deal (that has been properly scrutinised and amended) to go to a vote.

If approved by Parliament , then it goes to the people ... with facts and information about how it will benefit them and the UK or not

A proper informed debate and vote.
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Seriously if you think that, you are even more bonkers than I thought. And believe me, I thought you are absolutely bonkers in the first place.

The idea that Labour would LIKE an election but are only stopping one, for the good of the country? Now THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this thread in months. Even hard core supporters like Fumble, recognise that Labour are simply doing what's in their best interests electorally. They said they would back a GE once an extension has been agreed. Now they won't. They said they would back a GE once the threat of no deal has passed. Now they won't. You must have a screw loose somewhere if you think they are acting nobly.

Anyway, it matters not. The electorate have them rumbled, even if you do not.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Yes but May was an incompetent, charisma vacuumed, idiot. Defend her if you like.
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She was also naive enough to ignore the old adage “if I ain’t broke don’t fix it” she had no real reason (that I can recall) to go for an election but did so on the advice of advisors... that (coupled with the fact they she lacks charisma etc.) was her and the government’s undoing... severely weakening her position
 
Bluemanc100 said:
She was also naive enough to ignore the old adage “if I ain’t broke don’t fix it” she had no real reason (that I can recall) to go for an election but did so on the advice of advisors... that (coupled with the fact they she lacks charisma etc.) was her and the government’s undoing... severely weakening her position
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It's hard to think of how she could have played it worse. Putting aside her dismal lack of charisma (she has anti-charisma and makes peoples flesh creep), her campaign was an unmitigated disaster. She clearly thought (and rightly so) she was coasting for a 100 seat majority, so why even bother trying. The manifesto was terrible, complacent dross. And the bits they DID think about, were deeply unpleasant, on that basis that she thought she could put any old shite in there and then claim a mandate for it. Her public interviews were an absolute abortion, and then she didn't even show up to the main one. She bored people to tears with the strong and stable bullshit and offered NOTHING in the way of vision and hope of young people. She didn't even have the nouse to do the normal thing and try to bribe the electorate, as all would be PM's do. Social media? What's that? It was TERRIBLE.

And still Jeremy lost.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I don't agree. I think we'll have a GE, I think Boris will win and I think Parliament will vote for an FTA and the ERG will have to suck up not getting their "clean break" and Labour will have to suck up not getting their customs union. (Which incidentally is an entirely unjustifiable aspiration since it would not take back control of our borders.) This impasse is caused by fuckwit May losing her majority. Had she not fucked that up, we'd have left already.
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In all fairness to May, the polls were as good for her as they are for boris, when she called a G.E. She was trying to do the same thing he is, prioritize strengthening her and the tory partys position, over delivering Brexit.
Boris lost a bigger chunk of the majority than she did btw.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Seriously if you think that, you are even more bonkers than I thought. And believe me, I thought you are absolutely bonkers in the first place.

The idea that Labour would LIKE an election but are only stopping one, for the good of the country? Now THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this thread in months. Even hard core supporters like Fumble, recognise that Labour are simply doing what's in their best interests electorally. They said they would back a GE once an extension has been agreed. Now they won't. They said they would back a GE once the threat of no deal has passed. Now they won't. You must have a screw loose somewhere if you think they are acting nobly.

Anyway, it matters not. The electorate have them rumbled, even if you do not.
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We have never said that we would agree to a General Election if an extension was agreed ..... we have always said that we would agree to a General Election once the threat of a no deal Brexit was taken off the table
 
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