Another new Brexit thread

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BLUEMATT23 said:
OK shall we do another vote then?
Let's do it remain win. How about the decider in 2025?
We wouldn't have had all this nonsense had remain won. The fact is their all sore losers who are doing everything to prevent is exiting the European Union.
Their earning 100k to represent their constituencies and behaving appallingly.
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No, I think we should leave with this deal but the point you made was that the LibDems are undemocratic and so far you haven’t offered up any evidence as to why that’s the case.

I could actually argue your point better than you can - Swinson said that she wouldn’t respect another referendum if Leave won - there you go that’s an UNDEMOCRATIC thing to say but the LibDems policy ISN’T.

Having another referendum or changing your manifesto isn’t undemocratic, it’s the opposite, it’s how democracy should work as it doesn’t stand still.

They earn £80k a year and they’re there to act in the best interests of their constituencies. Do you expect someone in the north east to vote in favour of something that will make Nissan leave the UK, therefore taking thousands of jobs with them.
 
Ban-jani said:
No, I think we should leave with this deal but the point you made was that the LibDems are undemocratic and so far you haven’t offered up any evidence as to why that’s the case.

I could actually argue your point better than you can - Swinson said that she wouldn’t respect another referendum if Leave won - there you go that’s an UNDEMOCRATIC thing to say but the LibDems policy ISN’T.

Having another referendum or changing your manifesto isn’t undemocratic, it’s the opposite, it’s how democracy should work as it doesn’t stand still.

They earn £80k a year and they’re there to act in the best interests of their constituencies. Do you expect someone in the north east to vote in favour of something that will make Nissan leave the UK, therefore taking thousands of jobs with them.
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The Lib Dems (Clegg) said he would honour and move on from the result.
I accept they now have a new leader who interprets things differently.
However their (Lib Dems) whole policy has now changed and in fact saying they dont want to leave at all.
You cant call yourself " Democrats" if your as party not enacting a democratic vote even if you dont like the result.
 
Ban-jani said:
They earn £80k a year and they’re there to act in the best interests of their constituencies. Do you expect someone in the north east to vote in favour of something that will make Nissan leave the UK, therefore taking thousands of jobs with them.
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On that very specific point, I think yes, they are obligated to do that. The question mark over Nissan in the north east was debated extensively prior to the referendum. It was STAGGERING given the dependency of the economy in the area that the local population should have voted for Brexit, but that's what they did. There could be no conceivable argument that they did not know what they were voting for. And in those circumstances, yes I do think the local MP should be supporting Boris' WA.

In all seriousness, in a fair and non-corrupt democracy how on earth can a local MP stand up and say "I know you voted overwhelmingly for this, but I think I know better, so I am ignoring you"???
 
BLUEMATT23 said:
The Lib Dems (Clegg) said he would honour and move on from the result.
I accept they now have a new leader who interprets things differently.
However their (Lib Dems) whole policy has now changed and in fact saying they dont want to leave at all.
You cant call yourself " Democrats" if your as party not enacting a democratic vote even if you dont like the result.
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Nick Clegg wasn’t the LibDem leader at the last election, what are you talking about?

They’re allowed to change their policy, every political party in history does when they change leadership, what’s the point in changing leadership if not?

Johnson is now ending austerity apparently and offering mass public spending, this is a direct change from May and Cameron’s government and if Johnson stands on that in the impending GE, he’s well within his rights to implement it.

Just as the LibDems are if they win a majority with revoke as main policy or if they give the public the final say.

They all voted to trigger Article 50 and now believe it’s been bollocks’d up and the public deserve to decide on the way forward.

Most MP’s have voted for one flavour of Brexit so to say they’ve ignored it is incorrect.

You can have a referendum and several years later a party can promise to reverse it in a GE manifesto and if they win and do it, that’s democracy.
 
Chippy_boy said:
On that very specific point, I think yes, they are obligated to do that. The question mark over Nissan in the north east was debated extensively prior to the referendum. It was STAGGERING given the dependency of the economy in the area that the local population should have voted for Brexit, but that's what they did. There could be no conceivable argument that they did not know what they were voting for. And in those circumstances, yes I do think the local MP should be supporting Boris' WA.

In all seriousness, in a fair and non-corrupt democracy how on earth can a local MP stand up and say "I know you voted overwhelmingly for this, but I think I know better, so I am ignoring you"???
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But it’s not as black and white as that.

The MP may have voted in favour of May’s deal, Clarke’s amendment, Boles’s amendment etc. etc. which are all honouring the vote to leave but then they may have voted to block no deal, because that’s what will make Nissan piss off.

As I say, the vast majority of MPs have voted for at least one way of leaving, in the indicative votes.

I would say an MP should always vote for the well-being of their constituents. You won’t like this but Lammy has it right in saying they’re not faceless spokesman for their communities, they should be leading their communities and if said community doesn’t like it, well vote them out next time.
 
Ban-jani said:
But it’s not as black and white as that.

The MP may have voted in favour of May’s deal, Clarke’s amendment, Boles’s amendment etc. etc. which are all honouring the vote to leave but then they may have voted to block no deal, because that’s what will make Nissan piss off.

As I say, the vast majority of MPs have voted for at least one way of leaving, in the indicative votes.

I would say an MP should always vote for the well-being of their constituents. You won’t like this but Lammy has it right in saying they’re not faceless spokesman for their communities, they should be leading their communities and if said community doesn’t like it, well vote them out next time.
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You might be surprised that I agree with you. It was just the specifics about Nissan I was commenting on, although I take your point about the various votes and that maybe the local MP has supported some of them.

I've always said I don't like the idea of referendums and that we elect MPs to represent us and to use their best judgement to do what's best. Without referendums that is clear and it's worked just fine for hundreds of years. But as soon as we have a referendum then MPs are (potentially) torn between doing what their constituents voted for, or doing what they think is best. It's a right mess.

And by the way, this "taking no deal off the table" idea is an utter nonsense. Not only is it impossible to do with the parliamentary arithmetic as it stands and the situation with the negotiated WA, it's a bloody stupid idea anyway. You don't go into a negotiation with your ONLY negotiating tool - however weak it may be - rendered null and void. To do so is idiotic.
 
Chippy_boy said:
You might be surprised that I agree with you. It was just the specifics about Nissan I was commenting on, although I take your point about the various votes and that maybe the local MP has supported some of them.

I've always said I don't like the idea of referendums and that we elect MPs to represent us and to use their best judgement to do what's best. Without referendums that is clear and it's worked just fine for hundreds of years. But as soon as we have a referendum then MPs are (potentially) torn between doing what their constituents voted for, or doing what they think is best. It's a right mess.

And by the way, this "taking no deal off the table" idea is an utter nonsense. Not only is it impossible to do with the parliamentary arithmetic as it stands and the situation with the negotiated WA, it's a bloody stupid idea anyway. You don't go into a negotiation with your ONLY negotiating tool - however weak it may be - rendered null and void. To do so is idiotic.
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Yes I’d agree with all of that, despite the fact I don’t think no deal was much of a hand to play.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It just made us look small-time chancers, which would have hindered, not assisted our negotiating position.
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If it's such a hollow threat then what on earth is all the fuss about in parliament? Parliament seems to think it's a pretty real threat and from the fact that the EU opened up the WA again having been adamant that they would not, would indicate they considered it as being a distinct possibility as well. I know have a different opinion Bob, but the evidence would seem to suggest the threat carried a bit of clout and still does.

Which is handy because it's the only negotiating tool in our entire bag.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
It wasn’t a hand we realistically could have played. We’ve never been close to being ready. Does anyone honestly think we’ve got anything resembling the manpower we require at UKBA for a start?
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Don't know as it was disbanded in 2012..... you need to ask Group 4 Security who were handed the contract in 2013 after they'd fucked up the olympics the previous year.


Conservatives eh. What are they like?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It wasn’t a hand we realistically could have played. We’ve never been close to being ready. Does anyone honestly think we’ve got anything resembling the manpower we require at UKBA for a start?
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Don't know as it was disbanded in 2012..... you need to ask Group 4 Security who were handed the contract in 2013 after they'd fucked up the olympics the previous year.


Conservatives eh. What are they like?
 
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