General Election - December 12th, 2019

[BobKowalski]

All I am saying is that we should do what almost every other country does and charge for health services, there's no reason why we shouldn't.

Or you have reciprocal arrangements or mechanisms to transfer costs between countries or build it into the visa as a surcharge or have a scheme that protects your healthcare rights across 28 countries or a mixture of all of them. There are many ways to skin this cat. Fact remains that if you want migrants then you can’t be a unilateral dick over health or education. If you want to protect the rights of our own nationals abroad then you definitely can’t be a unilateral dick as it will just bite you in the arse.

International cooperation or acting like colossal dicks. You choose.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Well, post imperialism, this great nation doesn't appear to be doing that badly, why are we declining, and who is doing better?
No doubt this will result in the usual suspects painting Britain as a Dickensian nightmare with ragged starvelings clutching
at the clothes of passing toffs wearing supercilious sneers, but the reality is far different.

That's a poor excuse for picking a man’s pocket every twenty-fifth of December!

 

[west didsblue]

Did you think the arseholes that screamed obscenities at children are deprived and poverty stricken?

Nah not really. It was more the passing toffs with supercilious sneers that I had in mind.

 

[Vic]

My company has 4500 people on my site - 5 hours lost per week per employee represents 22500 hours lost per week, multiplied by the working year that's over 1 million hours lost.

We already have a flexi scheme so the working life balance would not be affected in any shape or form.

And you also want companies to pay people the same?

Lol.

Judging by the daytime posts on here Monday to Friday I reckon a lot of Bluemooners are already only doing 32 hours work in a week.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I think you make a very good point. Millions of people are really not that fussed about politics but came out to vote for the first time ever in the referendum. My brother-in-law being one example - Labour supporting family and background but could never be bothered to vote. He will be voting Tory in December. But to be honest, if it was reversed and the Tories were saying revoke or Ref2, and Labour were saying Brexit, I am sure he'd be voting Labour. He's really not that fussed about which party, he just wants Brexit followed through on.

Yes, I agree, if it were the Tories blocking it, and actually there were, and still are, plenty doing so, but are not in
charge, thankfully, I would be severely pissed off.

 

[west didsblue]

International cooperation or acting like colossal dicks. You choose.

As a country we made that choice three and a half years ago.

 

[mexico1970]

Or you have reciprocal arrangements or mechanisms to transfer costs between countries or build it into the visa as a surcharge or have a scheme that protects your healthcare rights across 28 countries or a mixture of all of them. There are many ways to skin this cat. Fact remains that if you want migrants then you can’t be a unilateral dick over health or education. If you want to protect the rights of our own nationals abroad then you definitely can’t be a unilateral dick as it will just bite you in the arse.

International cooperation or acting like colossal dicks. You choose.

There is no equal collaboration is there? Reciprocal health treatment means nothing when you travel abroad and have to pay heath care costs because that's what citizens of that country pay.

Here's a quote directly from the EHIC page.

You follow the same rules as a citizen of that country – so if their medical care is completely free, so is yours.

My question is that how many EU countries have free health care and how would this reciprocal arrangement work if those countries whilst being in the EU haven't allowed UK citizens to access free health care whilst in their country?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I think the Labour Party will be sent a message they won’t forget in a hurry. Taking their Leave voters in the North for granted is going to bite them on the arse.

I would hazard a bet that you're absolutely right.

 

[George Hannah]

Christ
Is that based on us all feeling sorry for her because of who she’s married to?

On the basis of her experience
Yvette Cooper MP (born 20 March 1969) is a British Labour Party politician who has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford since 2010, having served as the MP for Pontefract and Castleford since 1997. She served in the Cabinet between 2008 and 2010 under Prime Minister Gordon Brown as Chief Secretary to the Treasury and then as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. After Labour lost the 2010 general election, Cooper was appointed as Shadow Foreign Secretary, then became Shadow Home Secretary in 2011. On 13 May 2015, Cooper announced she would run to be Leader of the Labour Party in the leadership election following the resignation of Ed Miliband.[1] Cooper came third with 17.0% of the vote in the first round.[2] Cooper subsequently resigned as Shadow Home Secretary in September 2015. In October 2016, Cooper was elected chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee.[3]

 

[Vic]

It might never have been greater but that is due to the amount of people. But given the amount it should be more

If 10 thousand people used to earn a good living in a mine but now 50 thousand work in Amazon. The tax would be more than the mine workers but if the 50 thousand and good, we’ll paid work then the whole country would benefit

*im not suggesting we reopen the mines

If I read the stats right the tax take is 50% higher than when the Tories took office in 2010. The population has not gone up by 50%.

 

[Fame Monster]

Fair post.
A reminder of the person who shares with Cameron ultimately responsibility for the shit we’re in. Without McCluskey influencing the union vote for Ed Miliband, his brother would have won the leadership contest in 2010 and most likely defeated Cameron in 2015 with a moderate centre left Labour government that wouldn’t have gone anywhere near Brexit, and the consequent polarisation and likely break up of the country would just be a dystopian fiction writer’s idea for a book that everyone would think was too far fetched.

But then again, we'd probably have been involved in a disastrous military campaign against Assad in Syria that would have led to a proxy war against Iran, Russia, and many others.

Ed Miliband voting against intervening against Assad has to be one of the brightest foreign policy moves in modern UK history.

 

[Blue Hefner]

If I read the stats right the tax take is 50% higher than when the Tories took office in 2010. The population has not gone up by 50%.

50% in less than 10 years, that seems incredible to me but I've had a quick look and it seems as though you are correct. It makes me ask, where is all the money going?

 

[BobKowalski]

There is no equal collaboration is there? Reciprocal health treatment means nothing when you travel abroad and have to pay heath care costs because that's what citizens of that country pay.

Here's a quote directly from the EHIC page.

My question is that how many EU countries have free health care and how would this reciprocal arrangement work if those countries whilst being in the EU haven't allowed UK citizens to access free health care whilst in their country?

In the EU yes there is. All EU countries have universal health care via different models and with an EHIC card you are entitled to access that system as would a national of that country. I have no idea why you or anyone thinks this is ‘a bad idea’ beyond a vague suspicion that we are in some undefined manner getting ripped off. This will come as a surprise to the Spanish Govt with thousands of elderly Britons accessing the Spanish system compared to the number of Spaniards retiring here to do the same but there we go.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It isn't exactly the same model for everyone, how do you think it works now for a 39 or 36 hour week , does the country grind to a halt at Friday afternoon ? Of course it doesn't different businesses and services have different models, and it wouldn't grind to a halt if we average 32 hours / week.

I fear some people lack the imagination to get it or simply have decided its a policy that they have taken a dislike to so it must not pass......

 

[blueparrot]

I agree about the BP, their voters are starting to realise that voting for them now is pointless in many areas, so the
support is falling off. Where it gets interesting is the North, there are seats that have never been Tory, so their influence
there may make an impact, but I doubt it, if the Tory canvassers convince them that they won't get Brexit by voting for them.
Some will still vote for the BP, but I heard today they're only standing in 46 out of 75 seats in the North West, (figures may not
be exactly right), which would mean those
who are fiercely Brexit will vote Tory, but hold their nose. I don't think some people are aware of how strong is the disgust at Labour's
shenanigans re Brexit, many folk voted in the referendum for the very first time. When their vote has been stymied, and these
usually politically quiet people get screamed at as being racists, and thick idiots, who didn't know what they were doing,
then these people will be very pissed off indeed.

Here's the thing though many did vote to leave for the first time or first for a while and I am hearing the opinion it was a waste of time voting and they won't bother this time or again. Obviously it's impossible to put any figure on it but I wonder how many will blame the tories as much as Labour and not bother. Let's be honest the Tories + DUP always had enough numbers to get it through last March if they had voted then for a very similar deal to what they have now.

 

[mcfc1632]

Doesn't like memes, doesn't like gifs, doesn't like people liking comments, doesn't like opposing opinions.

I don't think the internet is the place for him.

I gave him a like - just felt he needed some support in his life

 

[mexico1970]

In the EU yes there is. All EU countries have universal health care via different models and with an EHIC card you are entitled to access that system as would a national of that country. I have no idea why you or anyone thinks this is ‘a bad idea’ beyond a vague suspicion that we are in some undefined manner getting ripped off. This will come as a surprise to the Spanish Govt with thousands of elderly Britons accessing the Spanish system compared to the number of Spaniards retiring here to do the same but there we go.

You are missing the point and it's a point I made clearly, you do not get free health care with an EHIC card you get what's available in that country and in most if not all that means a fee. You're issue should be with the EU countries that have charged UK citizens for healthcare not the other way around.
Again, the system isn't reciprocal or like for like it's nowhere near the same.

 

[bluethrunthru]

My company has 4500 people on my site - 5 hours lost per week per employee represents 22500 hours lost per week, multiplied by the working year that's over 1 million hours lost.

We already have a flexi scheme so the working life balance would not be affected in any shape or form.

And you also want companies to pay people the same?

Lol.

so every policy related to labour relations has to fit with where you work or it won't work for the country? Does everybody work flat out for every moment they are on site? Hours are "lost" in businesses all over the place day in day out - I have worked mostly from home since 1990 for multinational companies which employs people on different types of contracts across the globe - I wasn't aware of any productivity short comings between the productivity of home workers vs site based staff. In a business where that can be deployed as I say it benefits the worker - if you want to start work at 5am the do so, you don't have to wait for some building to be open - and it benefits the business which doesn't have to provide heat, light, power and space for a home worker so thats some of the benefits of homeworking where I probably have worked 30-32hrs a week for donkeys years.
Then, for site based staff, as I say you get a new order in that needs turning around quickly you can flood it with staff who want to work. Then there is a fallow period when companies you supply to shut down for holidays or because they don't need your product at that time - you can let people have time off - over a period its cost neutral - helps people to get some sort of work life balance but unlike a zero hours contract there is regular pay. A company doing this also gets a reputation as a flexible, reliable supplier of goods and services.

I am amazed that so many people don't have the vision or imagination to look beyond their own little bubble.

 

[BobKowalski]

You are missing the point and it's a point I made clearly, you do not get free health care with an EHIC card you get what's available in that country and in most if not all that means a fee. You're issue should be with the EU countries that have charged UK citizens for healthcare not the other way around.
Again, the system isn't reciprocal or like for like it's nowhere near the same.

I did not say free. I said universal healthcare. As an EU citizen you have the right to access the health service of that country. If in one country you have to pay a €10 fee to see the doctor then you have to pay the fee. If any prescription is called for and that prescription is free then it will also be free for you. Each country mandates its own health service. All the EU does is mandate your right to utilise that service. This is an automatic right you will lose and will require agreement between each EU nation and the UK to determine how UK citizens will be treated abroad in the future. If we start charging EU citizens for healthcare then these nations will reciprocate. If we don’t they won’t. We had difficulty in grasping the concept of reciprocity during the three years of negotiations so far and no doubt we will struggle to grasp it again over the next decade of negotiations.

 

[mexico1970]

I did not say free. I said universal healthcare. As an EU citizen you have the right to access the health service of that country. If in one country you have to pay a €10 fee to see the doctor then you have to pay the fee. If any prescription is called for and that prescription is free then it will also be free for you. Each country mandates its own health service. All the EU does is mandate your right to utilise that service. This is an automatic right you will lose and will require agreement between each EU nation and the UK to determine how UK citizens will be treated abroad in the future. If we start charging EU citizens for healthcare then these nations will reciprocate. If we don’t they won’t. We had difficulty in grasping the concept of reciprocity during the three years of negotiations so far and no doubt we will struggle to grasp it again over the next decade of negotiations.

What you are explaining isn't reciprocal, our health care is free and there is nothing wrong when we leave the EU levying a charge or indeed expecting visitors to buy insurance like they have to in many EU countries right now.