Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

I voted Remain because I had an inkling as to what would happen as a result if Leave won.
The fact is that Leave did win and ALL politicians stated they would respect the vote. They didn't, they lied:

Democracy has to be followed through.
Now if Remainers didn't like it, they should have pushed for a soft leave afterwards so the UK could easily rejoin in a few years time. They didn't, losers consent was withdrawn and they helped kill May's deal even though it was nearly the perfect vehicle to deliver their wishes. Instead they gradually moved the agenda back to Remain because Brexit was just too difficult. The fact that they were making it difficult is irrelevant to their agenda

Democracy is being followed through. We have spent the last three years flogging ourselves over Brexit. The fact that its a complicated and long drawn out process is just the nature of the beast and that people also fight against it is also a feature of democracy especially when reality doesn’t match the advertising.

Assuming we (eventually) close phase 1 we then move to phase 2 which will be an even longer and more complicated drawn out process and people will still be fighting against it. Welcome to the next five years or so.

 

[mcfc1632]

There is only 2 ways he gets Brexit done, as he’s imposed yet another artificial date by which to get it done. One is Farage’s ‘clean break Brexit’ or no deal and the other is giving in to every EU demand just to prove he’s Billy Big Bollox and has ‘got it done’. What a shambles.

Not true - because...….………..

Once the EU recognise that there is a viable threat of a No-Deal outcome and the political will to use it - they may well enter more committedly into negotiations that lead to a framework being established that facilitates either:

a) the date being achieved with an agreed schedule of detail to be continued to be worked on, or
b) an acceptable delay is agreed to reach the above position - and the majority of the electorate will not see this as 'die in ditch' stuff - just as they apparently have not recently

It has of course - despite the denial on here - always been true that we would not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the viable threat of a No-Deal outcome and the political will to use it.

It was pointed out in 2016 and frequently since - and recently proven to be 100% correct - it will still be true in 2020

 

[mcfc1632]

I voted Remain because I had an inkling as to what would happen as a result if Leave won.
The fact is that Leave did win and ALL politicians stated they would respect the vote. They didn't, they lied:

Democracy has to be followed through.
Now if Remainers didn't like it, they should have pushed for a soft leave afterwards so the UK could easily rejoin in a few years time. They didn't, losers consent was withdrawn and they helped kill May's deal even though it was nearly the perfect vehicle to deliver their wishes. Instead they gradually moved the agenda back to Remain because Brexit was just too difficult. The fact that they were making it difficult is irrelevant to their agenda

This clip should be posted every 5 pages to make sure people really understand the truth of what many have denied for over three years

 

[mcfc1632]

Let's not forget that Magic Grandpa's campaign to Remain was just about the worst political campaign in political history. The reason being he actually wanted to leave baring in mind his voting record in the HoC for the previous 36 years - even though most of his Momentum supporters want to Remain.

Correction: Though Jeremy has now been an MP for 36 years, at the time of the Referendum it was only 33 years.

Not keen to correct you but......

Whilst all you say in your post about Magic Grandpa is correct - it was not the worst ever campaign.

That award goes to May in 2017 - and with hindsight - thank fuck for that.

 

[Ban-jani]

Indeed - but along with that prerogative goes the need to accept responsibility for that choice - no point moaning 'no fair' just because the majority of people do not agree with them

I posted months ago that I could see the potential for Labour's stance leading to an eventual 'No-Deal' outcome - I got the 'expected outrage and denial' response from the usual suspects

I’m not commenting on the 2nd part as I don’t know but in relation to your 1st part I totally agree.

We’re in this strange world at the moment where what people choose or what they stand for, which is entirely their democratic right, is usually demonised and the rhetoric seems to be going down the route of them having no right.

Leave voters being called racists, LibDems being attacked for their revoke policy, Labour members for electing Corbyn, Labour members then chasing centre ground members out of the party, Tory remain MP’s being attacked, Farage’s Brexit Party being attacked.

These are all examples and we’re all guilty of it to some degree.

We need to calm the fuck down in this country and let the natural democratic process take its place.

If the country votes in Johnson, fine. If they vote in Corbyn, fine. If they vote in Swinson, fine.

FPTP isn’t great but it’s what we have and so just get on with it and let the public decide who they want.

 

[inbetween]

I think it’ll be anywhere between 55-45 in either direction for a little while yet so do agree with what you are saying.

The Tories will likely win the election, absolutely.

I don’t blame Labour. The membership are 80+% remain and there’s more remain labour voters than leave. They’ve followed their support and have pretty much taken the remain vote off the LibDems.

Yes that makes sense but there is a difference between the membership and lifelong Labour voters.

Let's face it, as it stands the difference in the election will be made by the people who will be voting Tory for the first and last time in their lives.

I don't think this is an election about Brexit, it is an election about making sure that Brexit happens. Labour weren't a threat to that previously but now they are and they have muddled trying to quash the Lib Dem vote by losing their bigger leave voting one.

 

[west didsblue]

I voted Remain because I had an inkling as to what would happen as a result if Leave won.
The fact is that Leave did win and ALL politicians stated they would respect the vote. They didn't, they lied:

Democracy has to be followed through.
Now if Remainers didn't like it, they should have pushed for a soft leave afterwards so the UK could easily rejoin in a few years time. They didn't, losers consent was withdrawn and they helped kill May's deal even though it was nearly the perfect vehicle to deliver their wishes. Instead they gradually moved the agenda back to Remain because Brexit was just too difficult. The fact that they were making it difficult is irrelevant to their agenda

Maybe if those in charge of the negotiations attempted to get cross party consensus rather than pursuing the ERG version of Leave it would have already been agreed and we would be well into transition and in detailed discussions about future trading arrangements. The fault for this shambles lies fairly and squarely with the government who tried every trick in the book, including unlawful ones, to stifle debate and deliver a harmful Brexit that was designed to enrich a small percentage of the population at the expense of everyone else.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes that makes sense but there is a difference between the membership and lifelong Labour voters.

Let's face it, as it stands the difference in the election will be made by the people who will be voting Tory for the first and last time in their lives.

I don't think this is an election about Brexit, it is an election about making sure that Brexit happens. Labour weren't a threat to that previously but now they are and they have muddled trying to quash the Lib Dem vote by losing their bigger leave voting one.

It’s a bit of a myth that Labour’s long term voters are leave voters. There is definitely a case to be made that northern strong holds, outside of Manchester and Liverpool, that have voted Labour for years, are leave constituencies absolutely. However it still remains the case that the majority of Labour voters are remain voters.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m not commenting on the 2nd part as I don’t know but in relation to your 1st part I totally agree.

We’re in this strange world at the moment where what people choose or what they stand for, which is entirely their democratic right, is usually demonised and the rhetoric seems to be going down the route of them having no right.

Leave voters being called racists, LibDems being attacked for their revoke policy, Labour members for electing Corbyn, Labour members then chasing centre ground members out of the party, Tory remain MP’s being attacked, Farage’s Brexit Party being attacked.

These are all examples and we’re all guilty of it to some degree.

We need to calm the fuck down in this country and let the natural democratic process take its place.

If the country votes in Johnson, fine. If they vote in Corbyn, fine. If they vote in Swinson, fine.

FPTP isn’t great but it’s what we have and so just get on with it and let the public decide who they want.

I could not be bothered with a detailed search - but 1min found me these 2 posts:

I am a bit surprised that Labour's position on a unity government has not led to a realisation that they will in fact be responsible for a No-deal if it happens

I mentioned some weeks ago that Corbyn could be responsible for a No-Deal outcome - it was an opinion that was derided at the time

Given that those posts were a month or 2 ago I am guessing I was flagging this outcome risk in the early summer​

 

[journolud]

Hmmmmm

But that post/image would have a lot more going for it if the polls were showing that people do not agree with the 'wise'

It’s entirely fitting that people wouldn’t get the ambiguity of the saying just as there is little subtlety to the mantra of Brexit means Brexit and all the other sound bites we have

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I voted Remain because I had an inkling as to what would happen as a result if Leave won.
The fact is that Leave did win and ALL politicians stated they would respect the vote. They didn't, they lied:

Democracy has to be followed through.
Now if Remainers didn't like it, they should have pushed for a soft leave afterwards so the UK could easily rejoin in a few years time. They didn't, losers consent was withdrawn and they helped kill May's deal even though it was nearly the perfect vehicle to deliver their wishes. Instead they gradually moved the agenda back to Remain because Brexit was just too difficult. The fact that they were making it difficult is irrelevant to their agenda

May has to take significant responsibility for her combative non-inclusive approach too, as do the ERG.

 

[Ban-jani]

I could not be bothered with a detailed search - but 1min found me these 2 posts:

Given that those posts were a month or 2 ago I am guessing I was flagging this outcome risk in the early summer​

I wasn’t claiming you had or hadn’t predicted this - more that I don’t personally have an opinion nor know.

 

[mcfc1632]

Maybe if those in charge of the negotiations attempted to get cross party consensus rather than pursuing the ERG version of Leave it would have already been agreed and we would be well into transition and in detailed discussions about future trading arrangements. The fault for this shambles lies fairly and squarely with the government who tried every trick in the book, including unlawful ones, to stifle debate and deliver a harmful Brexit that was designed to enrich a small percentage of the population at the expense of everyone else.

You have got a number of things clearly muddled there:

"Maybe if those in charge of the negotiations attempted to get cross party consensus....." - yes that could be a valid point, until the very next words.....

".......rather than pursuing the ERG version of Leave it would have already been agreed and we would be well into transition and in detailed discussions about future trading arrangements." - becuase this is simply untrue/nonsense.

The May deal was worse than Remaining - it clearly did not reflect anything that could be considered 'the ERG Version of leave' - and at no time following the removal of the negotiations into No. 10 with Robbins being May's useless and Remain-biased lackey were ERG positions put before the EU.

But at least you got that first bit right and TBF some simple changes would make it all flow well - perhaps change the 2nd part to:

".....rather than pursuing the BRINO version of Leave and introducing the unfettered backstop that was so poisonous that it could never be accepted the government had undertaken the negotiations with a proper Leave mandate and conducted them with professionalism - it would have already been agreed and we would be well into transition and in detailed discussions about future trading arrangements."

 

[BlueAnorak]

Not keen to correct you but......

Whilst all you say in your post about Magic Grandpa is correct - it was not the worst ever campaign.

That award goes to May in 2017 - and with hindsight - thank fuck for that.

Ha ha. Yes I think I agree with that.

 

[BlueAnorak]

May has to take significant responsibility for her combative non-inclusive approach too, as do the ERG.

I think you're right for the first point.
As to the second, BRINO isn't Leave and the Irish Backstop, as was, was a constitutional disaster and everyone should have stood against it, regardless of political affiliation.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I see Tony Blair is pushing hard for a Labour victory by declaring Jeremy dangerous.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think you're right for the first point.
As to the second, BRINO isn't Leave and the Irish Backstop, as was, was a constitutional disaster and everyone should have stood against it, regardless of political affiliation.

Johnson eventually ended up voting for the ‘constitutional disaster’.

And how is it a ‘constitutional disaster’ to support a proposal that saw all four home nations treated equally as opposed to a proposal that treats one home nation differently to the other three and with no democratic mandate in that nation consenting to this different treatment? Surely the latter is more of a constitutional threat given it separates U.K. sovereign territory and permits the economic writ of foreign nations within that territory?

 

[Vic]

Echo chamber alert.

Surely "let's get brexit done" is the ultimate echo. I'm just reporting. Bloke today would personally be worse off (earning over 80k) with Labour but is in manufacturing and Brexit is already damaging the business.

Has Johnson been interviewed by the police yet over his misconduct in public office while mayor of London?

 

[Vic]

I voted Remain because I had an inkling as to what would happen as a result if Leave won.
The fact is that Leave did win and ALL politicians stated they would respect the vote. They didn't, they lied:

Democracy has to be followed through.
Now if Remainers didn't like it, they should have pushed for a soft leave afterwards so the UK could easily rejoin in a few years time. They didn't, losers consent was withdrawn and they helped kill May's deal even though it was nearly the perfect vehicle to deliver their wishes. Instead they gradually moved the agenda back to Remain because Brexit was just too difficult. The fact that they were making it difficult is irrelevant to their agenda

That's such a distortion. Leave promised a soft Brexit- in case you missed it, "we will still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border". Remainers would have been ok with that but we didn't have any chance to "push for it" as the mad Tories won the cabinet battle. It's why I don't care about honouring the result; the winners didn't honour their promises. Gove said as much last March.

 

[Vic]

But you said:

"Most people want it "done" by never wanting to hear about it again. That means abandoning it, not carrying on …."

Which is why you are getting the responses that suggest that you/Labour are securely locked into an echo chamber and cannot stand to reconsider their approach
Then you say:

"Simply, Labour has to get across that if Johnson wins a majority we are into more "never ending palaver"......"

Yep - I can see that from your echo chamber POV - but far more simple would have been for Labour to realise many months ago that Brexit is still the 'big issue' and people do not want it simply abandoned and they expect potential PMs to show some leadership!!

Basically Labour has fucked it up royally and are left, along with its supportters like yourself, having to hope that clutching at fragile straws will - on this rare occasion - actually achieve something.

"People do not want it simply abandoned" is exactly why Labour's policy is as it is! Well spotted.