General Election - December 12th, 2019

[BobKowalski]

FWIW, Did you see McDonnell now saying shareholder value is the root of all evil???!! He really genuinely is 100.0% bone fide Marxist isn't he.

Clearly he only presents externally what he thinks either the public like hearing about (vast spending on public services and other bribes) or what he can get away with. But I wonder what he really would have in mind if god forbid he ever got a majority??? It doesn't bear thinking of. We are talking full on proletarian revolution. We could genuinely look forward to the United Kingdom becoming yet another failed communist state. Of course he's never going to get that far, but what a frightening prospect.

The focus on shareholder value and prioritising short term stock growth at the expense of other metrics has been detrimental. The Trump tax cut which was sold as a chance for business to grow, hire and see workers benefit through higher wages found most of it went in increased returns to stockholders via increased profits. This also promotes value of stock thereby increasing renumeration for executives.

Increasing stock value cannot be dismissed as a metric given pension funds are also shareholders but using it as a sole metric is unhealthy.

 

[joe123]

Those choices being;

Conservative majority
Corbyn/Momentum majority (I refuse to call them 'Labour')
Hung parliament.

No-one wants a hung parliament, I cannot abide Corbyn and Momentum deciding policy, so...

I won't vote for them, but if I wake up on Dec 13th and see Boris grinning like a cheshire cat, i'll be like "right... time to step down Corbyn"

A Tory win is preciesly what Labour moderates need to put pressure on his supporters to say "he's not good enough". Miliband only had one crack at the whip, why does Corbyn get two (or three?)

I'm massively in favour of a more moderate Labour party, but enabling said image of Johnson is far too high a price to pay for me.

 

[Metal Biker]

I believe in gay marriage, the right for a woman to choose, am against blood sports, and not opposed to the right of self determination. Are these ideas far left?

No they are not far-left, they are liberal/libertarian.

Do you identify as being far-left? If not then why are you upset about me citing that the rise of the far-right has been down to the far-left attacking moderates and liberals for "not being left wing enough"?

We're talking about people who say that a person saying it is a woman's right to choose, and then that woman choosing to oppose abortions for example, is then being attacked for being a fascist by the far-left. The far-left doesn't care about you opinion, only that you share theirs. They are intolerant of others opinions especially if it opposes their own world views.

They approve of a woman's right to choose, but if she chooses "wrong"...

 

[Metal Biker]

I'm massively in favour of a more moderate Labour party, but enabling said image of Johnson is far too high a price to pay for me.

So you'd rather have Corbyn/Momentum in power?
For all the Tories faults i've not heard a community in which 50% of them have stated they would have to leave the country if they got into power.

A moderate Labour would destroy this current Conservative Government. The damage Momentum would do in 5 years is nothing compared to bungling Boris. In five years we can get Boris out. If Corbyn wins, we won't see him or Momentum loosening their hold over Labour for over a decade.

 

[Metal Biker]

Might be, I've no doubt there's a parallel reality somewhere, where Momentum is actually anti-Semitic.

It's the one we live in currently.

But y'all keep ignoring it, shying away from it, dismissing it. It obviously makes you feel warm and fuzzy not to wake up to the realisation the party you support has an element of poison within it. ;)

 

[Chippy_boy]

I imagine a lot of Labour voters, like myself, think the same of their side!

Well they'd be wrong. Putting aside whether Labour's objectives are noble and genuine or not, you cannot impose the changes Labour seek to impose without really, really bad adverse effects. It's just not possible.

As it stands today, we are middle of the road on corporation tax collected (lower rates but wider scope and less allowances). Raising the rate would put as at the top of the EU chart for corporate tax burden. Couple that with us having the lowest productivity of the G20 (barring Japan) and ask yourself why on earth would any foreign business want to set up or maintain its HQ in the UK? If you are undecided, then throw in as well, increased employment costs, limits on exec pay, meddling with company structures, forcing up pay through "collective bargaining", i.e. blackmailing, and making strikes easier. Put that lot together and so you seriously suggest that business would be unaffected and carry on just as before? Anyone with an open mind can see that this would be terribly damaging for investment, jobs, growth and prosperity.

Then we have the effect of £1Tn of additional borrowing. Interest rates up, mortgage costs up, rents up, less landlords and less rented properties available, rents up further. Rising unemployment due to paragraph 2 above, more repossessions, more homelessness, falling tax receipts, falling funding for public services, spiralling borrowing, further interest rate rises, more strikes, lost output, failing businesses, more unemployment. A deadly spiral into national bankruptcy. Suggest you do a bit of reading on what happened when Harold Wilson was in charge?

 

[joe123]

So you'd rather have Corbyn/Momentum in power?
For all the Tories faults i've not heard a community in which 50% of them have stated they would have to leave the country if they got into power.

A moderate Labour would destroy this current Conservative Government. The damage Momentum would do in 5 years is nothing compared to bungling Boris. In five years we can get Boris out. If Corbyn wins, we won't see him or Momentum loosening their hold over Labour for over a decade.

Honestly yes. They aren't going to get a majority, so the more radical elements of what they're pledging wouldn't get through without reform and can honestly say after 9 years of this tory shite, anything else is worth a shot.

 

[mcfc1632]

Nah, the Civil Service wants to build and run an empire and the only way to do that since the demise of the British Empire is via the EU.

I was giving a presentation in the Department of Justice on the day Gina Miller won her first court victory and there was a whopping and a hollering throughout the building with fist pumping and high fives all round. That was the event that convinced me that Brexit had to be delivered - even though I voted Remain - democracy was more important.

Anyone that has worked with the core Civil service from Senior management grades upwards would be aware of just how EU biased they are.

With a lot of the main departments and their strategies and policies - some key players believe that they run the country.

Ministers and governments can come and go but they see themselves as the point of continuity and strategy

TBF to Blair, which I rarely am, it was him and is team that really shook the system up and made the 'mandarins' pay attention - before becoming ME obsessed and letting everything lapse back.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Vote for Swinson = vote for Labour. Which is why you suggest it of course.

I was talking to a Remainer friend of mine yesterday who runs his own small business and he is in a right quandary. Vote Lib Dem and get Labour and the economic disaster that would ensue or vote Tory and get Brexit. He considered that the latter wouldn't be anything like as damaging so will give Boris a go.

 

[Metal Biker]

Honestly yes. They aren't going to get a majority, so the more radical elements of what they're pledging wouldn't get through without reform and can honestly say after 9 years of this tory shite, anything else is worth a shot.

If you're supporting Corbyn, you're admitting to wanting 9 more years of Momentum, because there's no way they'd step down at the next general election if they won this one. It wouldn't be 9 more years of Boris, though; a moderate Labour would defeat a Boris Government. A bolstered Momentum win would require a drastic shift from the Conservatives to the centre. What's more likely to happen in the result of a Boris win/Corbyn win?

Momentum and it's "movement" needs expelling now; when 50% of a community expresses their fears to leave should Corbyn/Momentum get into power, I have to take that on board. That means a Conservative majority, we rebuild, then we stand a better chance the kind of country we all want to see, not the one Momentum thinks we should want.

 

[Len Rum]

but actually it could be good in the long run.

Brexit will get done so that will be put to bed ( for now )

it will mean that labour will have moved so far left there will be proof that their traditional voters have left them.

Corbyn momentum and the communist angry hateful mob that has infected the party will hopefully be sidelined and a moderate sensible left of centre party can again emerge in the Labour Party and people will flock back to them. As it is badly needed in our politics.

Voters in Germany in the 30's were probably thinking the same thing - it could be good in the long run if Adolph gets in with a majority because then Otto Weiss will be sidelined and a new SPD party can emerge and people will flock back to them.
Wake up and smell the coffee mate.

 

[mcfc1632]

Stop moaning and vote for Swinson you big Jessie.

Again - those tales of Japanese soldiers found months after the war was over but refusing to believe the outcome comes to mind.

 

[The perfect fumble]

It's the one we live in currently.

But y'all keep ignoring it, shying away from it, dismissing it. It obviously makes you feel warm and fuzzy not to wake up to the realisation the party you support has an element of poison within it. ;)

You haven't the faintest idea have you.

For the longest time Zionists were very comfortable in the Labour Party because of two things.

1. In the past the Labour Party paid only lip service to Palestinian self determination.
2. Israel used to elect sensible governments, now it votes for right wing zealots like Netanyahu.

Result? Spits and spats, and knownothings like you ape the Daily Mail and shit themselves shouting anti-Semitism.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The focus on shareholder value and prioritising short term stock growth at the expense of other metrics has been detrimental. The Trump tax cut which was sold as a chance for business to grow, hire and see workers benefit through higher wages found most of it went in increased returns to stockholders via increased profits. This also promotes value of stock thereby increasing renumeration for executives.

Increasing stock value cannot be dismissed as a metric given pension funds are also shareholders but using it as a sole metric is unhealthy.

Ah Comrade Bob showing his true colours.

What utter horse shit Bob. For a start, "shareholder value" - i.e. a commercial imperative to increase growth and profits is the engine which has enabled capitalism to be successful the world over in contrast to socialism which has failed to improve wealth and living standards the world over. Capitalism may not be perfect and may not work ideally in every circumstance, but generally it works and generally, the alternatives do not.

Moreover, who do you think the shareholders are? Some band of nomads roving around stealing the poor downtrodden workers' money? No, they are the big financial institutions, investing peoples' savings and their pensions.

This is yet another example of Labour portraying its true colours. A motivation primarily to see the better off do worse. Not to see the worse off do better.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Again - those tales of Japanese soldiers found months after the war was over but refusing to believe the outcome comes to mind.

feeding on oven ready Brexit no doubt.

 

[Bluemanc100]

The NHS

I meant an entire nation under socialism.. The NHS is worthy of acclaim but @Labour continually lauding its creation at their hand is akin to the dippers celebrating past league wins in black and white or on 4:3 TV

 

[mcfc1632]

I am no fan of Boris, as I've said on here many times. I'm no fan of the Tory party in its current state either.

But the alternative is so staggeringly, off-the-scale worse as to make the decision as to which way to vote, a no-brainer.

And so say many of us

 

[joe123]

If you're supporting Corbyn, you're admitting to wanting 9 more years of Momentum, because there's no way they'd step down at the next general election if they won this one. It wouldn't be 9 more years of Boris, though; a moderate Labour would defeat a Boris Government. A bolstered Momentum win would require a drastic shift from the Conservatives to the centre. What's more likely to happen in the result of a Boris win/Corbyn win?

Momentum and it's "movement" needs expelling now; when 50% of a community expresses their fears to leave should Corbyn/Momentum get into power, I have to take that on board. That means a Conservative majority, we rebuild, then we stand a better chance the kind of country we all want to see, not the one Momentum thinks we should want.

I see what you're saying, but I just think the parliamentary maths will prevent any of the more extreme policies going through, similar to the way parliament sought to block no-deal.

 

[George Hannah]

Voters in Germany in the 30's were probably thinking the same thing - it could be good in the long run if Adolph gets in with a majority because then Otto Weiss will be sidelined and a new SPD party can emerge and people will flock back to them.
Wake up and smell the coffee mate.

I should take a look into what's in your coffee Len - your lefty pals seem to have laced it with something hallucinogenic :)

 

[BobKowalski]

Specifically? What are you even on about?

There have been multiple radicalised opinions attacking moderate views that has seen a backlash from people who are getting fed up with extreme views and intolerance of differing opinions. That is one example of the many social changes we've seen in the discourse between people.

So people being mean to you on Bluemoon is your entire argument?