Crystal Palace (H) - Post Match

[spiny]

The Palace 2nd goal was like watching a car crash in slow motion. Their first was lack of concentration and commitment.
They got breaks but City did little to prevent it. City players get caught up in the moment and lose their shape.

Opposite sides play for set pieces and 1 on 1's from which they can expect to score.
In contrast City make dozens of crosses and runs that are mainly blocked or rarely trouble the goalkeeper.

The probem is as much about players lack of intent and desire as Peps tactics. Take Sterling who has regressed from main man to also ran. There are others who have lost sight of the basics.

 

[mcs]

Great reply mate, many thanks. Just wondering now, does the ref have to accept VAR panel decision, or can he simply think, I am in charge and I believe I was orinially correct so my initial ruling stands?

I agree it could be a career limiting stance

You have hit the nail on the head in terms of what I think is the biggest bugbear with VAR. It seems the VAR overlords have the final say.

I do not know the exact answer to your question - but we have yet to see an example of where the ref seemingly has had the final say (But then we dont know as there is no 'public' nature of information flow between VAR and the referee.

I think the biggest improvement to VAR would be, for everything bar the bleedingly obvious incorrect decisions that can be quickly fixed or offsides (Where they have gone down the route of trying to do micro-precision analysis), that the on field referee remains the decision maker. VAR can review and tell him he must go and look at the screen and reconsider his decision, but he remains the ultimate decision maker. He (or she one day perhaps) must then be willing to front up and explain his decisions after the game, if it disagrees with the footage. Add to that a requirement that wherever possible replays are shown at the ground as they are watched for VAR (noting the pond in Trafford and Klanfield need to get with the times), and that the conversation is streamed live (As it is in rugby union and rugby league) so everyone knows whats going on, and a lot of the issues with VAR will go away.

But that would encourage transparency and remove the ability for VAR to potentially drive an agenda (not saying it is being used like that at the moment) - and that seems to be what I suspect many think is the real driving force behind the half arsed way it has been implemented this season.

I reckon had the referee had the final call yesterday, it would have stood as a penalty. On the basis I think he adjudged it to be accidental handball, but the body being 'unnaturally bigger' as per the rule. I don't think anyone can mount a strong argument that such a conclusion, when made live as it was by him, by necessarily unreasonable - certainly not a 'clear and obvious error' as VAR rules are supposed to stipulate. Its very noticeable in their press release/dribble about the decision that they seemed to solely focus on the aspect of 'boot to hand', but conveniently ignore the other aspect of the rule (I.e. the body must also not be naturally bigger). Very selectively presented to try and suggest a 'clear and obvious error', when I'm not convinced there actually was one.

I wish the referees were made to justify their decisions, or at least be able to be asked about them. But for that to transpire, it will need a complete shift on what VAR is and how its implemented.

 

[mcs]

The Palace 2nd goal was like watching a car crash in slow motion. Their first was lack of concentration and commitment.
They got breaks but City did little to prevent it. City players get caught up in the moment and lose their shape.

Opposite sides play for set pieces and 1 on 1's from which they can expect to score.
In contrast City make dozens of crosses and runs that are mainly blocked or rarely trouble the goalkeeper.

The probem is as much about players lack of intent and desire as Peps tactics. Take Sterling who has regressed from main man to also ran. There are others who have lost sight of the basics.

I don't think Sterling has regressed - I think he is just buggered and needs a decent break. Has played a lot of football this season.

 

[spiny]

I don't think Sterling has regressed - I think he is just buggered and needs a decent break. Has played a lot of football this season.

Maybe it is cause and effect but it does not help the team or his confidence.

 

[OB1]

I think you'll find when Laporte comes bank suddenly the defenders around him will look good again.

The one player who I think City fans can justifiably be concerned with is Cancelo. Very disappointing buy. Danilo was better. I also have a bit of a concern about Rodri. I am more concerned about the defenisve midfield position at City than centre-back.

If you look at the Palace equaliser it stems not from Stones but Rodri and Cancelo. Rodri lost a midfield 50/50. In fact KDB also loses a 50/50 and then Cancelo i out of position. The only city player who even tries to do his job properly is Stones. But typically City fans follow the herd because Stones gets universal criticism. He is at most partly to blame for a collective failure.

Too many people just want to play the blame game and we have always had far too many "supporters" who love to scapegoat a player.

In my opinion, virtually the whole team were at fault in some way on their equalizer. I'd be interested to know if the goal kick that Ederson took was a planned move for that situation and executed how Pep wanted; given that he has mentioned not allowing Zaha to run, it couldn't have gone entirely as coached even if it was his idea. I thought Ederson should have gone wide with that GK or even kicked for touch so that we could press them high and try and keep the ball in a corner.

 

[mcs]

Maybe it is cause and effect but it does not help the team or his confidence.

I do agree broadly. I just have felt over the last half a dozen games he really looks to be lacking any 'spark' as such to his game. His form has always ebbed and flowed throughout his career, and he looks awful at times and world beating at others (Becoming far more consistent with time, especially at City). Hopefully the upcoming late winter break might help him a bit. Need him firing for the RM tie.

 

[Marvin]

I like that, a balanced and more importantly realistic take.

It's not balanced. It's called walking a tightrope.

Of course there is a possibility that City have gone stale, and if that is the case Pep should go. Indeed if you listen to Pep he says that one of the issues that worrie

You have hit the nail on the head in terms of what I think is the biggest bugbear with VAR. It seems the VAR overlords have the final say.

I do not know the exact answer to your question - but we have yet to see an example of where the ref seemingly has had the final say (But then we dont know as there is no 'public' nature of information flow between VAR and the referee.

I think the biggest improvement to VAR would be, for everything bar the bleedingly obvious incorrect decisions that can be quickly fixed or offsides (Where they have gone down the route of trying to do micro-precision analysis), that the on field referee remains the decision maker. VAR can review and tell him he must go and look at the screen and reconsider his decision, but he remains the ultimate decision maker. He (or she one day perhaps) must then be willing to front up and explain his decisions after the game, if it disagrees with the footage. Add to that a requirement that wherever possible replays are shown at the ground as they are watched for VAR (noting the pond in Trafford and Klanfield need to get with the times), and that the conversation is streamed live (As it is in rugby union and rugby league) so everyone knows whats going on, and a lot of the issues with VAR will go away.

But that would encourage transparency and remove the ability for VAR to potentially drive an agenda (not saying it is being used like that at the moment) - and that seems to be what I suspect many think is the real driving force behind the half arsed way it has been implemented this season.

I reckon had the referee had the final call yesterday, it would have stood as a penalty. On the basis I think he adjudged it to be accidental handball, but the body being 'unnaturally bigger' as per the rule. I don't think anyone can mount a strong argument that such a conclusion, when made live as it was by him, by necessarily unreasonable - certainly not a 'clear and obvious error' as VAR rules are supposed to stipulate. Its very noticeable in their press release/dribble about the decision that they seemed to solely focus on the aspect of 'boot to hand', but conveniently ignore the other aspect of the rule (I.e. the body must also not be naturally bigger). Very selectively presented to try and suggest a 'clear and obvious error', when I'm not convinced there actually was one.

I wish the referees were made to justify their decisions, or at least be able to be asked about them. But for that to transpire, it will need a complete shift on what VAR is and how its implemented.

Another feature of VAR is the increase in theatrics and complaints. Players are anticipating that every move might be replayed so their willingness to deceive and act goes up not down. See it especially with players reactions to slightly OTT challenges which could get a yellow and get upgraded into reds.

Video evidence should imo be used for retrospctive disciplinary action not to amend refereeing 2-3 minutes later. Getting a 2nd opinion 2-3 minutes after the event is not useful.

 

[mcfcphil]

No one that I can see is saying the board should be meeting today or Monday to decide whether to sack him this week because we fucked up against Palace again. But you seem to think people are saying that as you've got so uptight about it that you're not reading what people are writing. What people are saying is that we might need to accept that, as good a manager as he is, there's a possibility that he's reached his peak with us or he's burned himself out. He might think he's at that stage and decide to go at the end of next season, when his contract ends.

As you've mentioned Mancini, there was a great example of a manager who gave us a kick up the backside when we needed it. But eventually the players got tired of his angry man schtick and many were threatening to walk. That was Mancini, for better or worse, and that's why he had a short shelf-life at a club. We also had a sense of misguided loyalty to him as we should have let him walk in the summer of 2012 as he was threatening to do.

So unless something dramatic and unforeseen happens, Pep has another season and a half here. There is currently no better manager in the world than Pep but if things have gone stale and he can't or doesn't want to turn things round then he won't be here in 2021/22. We may not get a "better" manager but we might get one who's better for us at that time. And so the cycle starts again.

just because we won’t win the league doesn’t mean we’ve gone stale!

We’re 2nd in the league, on the verge of Wembley, still in FA Cup and topped our CL group with a game to come against Real Madrid.

But you think we should consider replacing the manager because we won’t win the league for the third year on the bounce.

Astonishing level of disrespect towards Guardiola for what he has achieved here - but more importantly a huge disrespect towards him for thinking he won’t continue to be successful with city.

 

[robbieh]

I’ve questioned every manager we’ve ever had, but even I draw the line with Pep. You talk about defensive frailties and Pep being held accountable for them, but you have to take into account the context. Kompany gone, our best defender injured, Otamendi struggling, Stones struggling, Fernandinho playing out of position. Those who were pointing out our over reliance on Laporte before a ball was kicked have been vindicated. You think Pep can’t see these problems? It’s clear a rebuild is required and I’m desperate for Pep to be the man in charge whilst this happens. I understand he’s probably off soon, but I’m convinced he understands what is needed and is the man to deliver it before he hands over the reins. We may well end up looking back on the Pep era as out best ever period in terms of trophies and performance levels, I doubt we’ll replace him with a better manager.

Think you might benefit from watching the 2 abject defensive performances by Bayern in the CL to realize that it's not just about Laporte's injury or Kompany leaving.

While Pep's creative attacking philosophy is second to none, he like everybody has a blind spot.

 

[mcs]

Video evidence should imo be used for retrospctive disciplinary action not to amend refereeing 2-3 minutes later. Getting a 2nd opinion 2-3 minutes after the event is not useful.

I think it has a role to play in fixing up errors on the spot - but I do think we need 1 referee, not 2 (or multiple it seems) as we have in the current framework. But I certainly agree something needs to be done with the theatrics and complaints we are seeing now.

 

[carlosthejackal]

Can’t understand some on here wanting Pep to get the sack. Most successful manager in England the past few years. Last year won the domestic treble plus back to back titles holding off tremendous pressure from Liverpool to win it. This season was always going to be a down turn, counter that with Kompany leaving, Laporte injury. Not getting another centre half was an error. Pep deserves a lot of credit and much more importantly support now.

Basically seems quite a few City supporters have become self entitled and behave like spoilt teenagers when things don’t go to plan .

 

[OB1]

I’ve questioned every manager we’ve ever had, but even I draw the line with Pep. You talk about defensive frailties and Pep being held accountable for them, but you have to take into account the context. Kompany gone, our best defender injured, Otamendi struggling, Stones struggling, Fernandinho playing out of position. Those who were pointing out our over reliance on Laporte before a ball was kicked have been vindicated. You think Pep can’t see these problems? It’s clear a rebuild is required and I’m desperate for Pep to be the man in charge whilst this happens. I understand he’s probably off soon, but I’m convinced he understands what is needed and is the man to deliver it before he hands over the reins. We may well end up looking back on the Pep era as out best ever period in terms of trophies and performance levels, I doubt we’ll replace him with a better manager.

We will never replace Pep with a better manager any time soon and probably never. That doesn't preclude us having lots of success without him but Pep is absolutely exceptional. However, as he points out time after time, he (and any manager) has to have the right players and it's the club's job - and not any one individual (this is not a dig at anyone) - to provide him with them. And, whatever lengths the club goes to and however much it spends, not every signing will work out or work out instantly.

I think we do need a rebuild but it's a mini one: we have a lot of young talent. What is also needed, regardless of the manager, is constant refreshing of the squad so that major rebuilds are never required in the future. Getting that right takes time but what we have now is a framework of how we want to play and the club just needs to get (even) better at executing the strategy it has chosen.

 

[OB1]

Think you might benefit from watching the 2 abject defensive performances by Bayern in the CL to realize that it's not just about Laporte's injury or Kompany leaving.

While Pep's creative attacking philosophy is second to none, he like everybody has a blind spot.

Go on then, what's his blind spot?

 

[Beanhead]

The morning after the night before.

Yep, I’m still fucking gutted.

Went to a party last night gutted, I had a drink gutted, i had a laugh gutted, got home gutted, went to sleep gutted, woke up gutted.

That is exactly how I would usually feel. Usually.

But as you would expect this current side to be in the title race and we weren’t going into the game. I took yesterday’s result far better than I usually would. Since the Wolves game the premier league is kind of meh. We’ll comfortably get CL place and that’s the extent of it.

I actually have more passion about getting the league cup and going through in the FA Cup and obviously really want a crack at the CL and looking forward to the Madrid tie.

But I’m relaxed about the league now. It’s done.. if the league could give me some satisfaction this year it would be Liverpool to drop some serious points as they really don’t deserve to break our points records as they aren’t close to being as good as we were the past few seasons.

 

[mcs]

But I’m relaxed about the league now. It’s done.. if the league could give me some satisfaction this year it would be Liverpool to drop some serious points as they really don’t deserve to break our points records as they aren’t close to being as good as we were the past few seasons.

Same here. We played a vastly better to watch style of football during our Centurions season - they've just been very effective in terms of grinding out results consistently. All credit for that, but I don't think they are this year as good as they were last year (in terms of style/quality of football), and not particularly close to the quality of our 2017/18 team. That isn't to take anything away from what they have achieved - as its a results driven business at the end of the day. I'd love nothing more for them to drop off enough to miss the 100 point mark and not go undefeaten. But unless we beat them at home, I reckon they'll manage the latter, and if they do that they'll surely manage the former too :( Then we'll never, ever hear the end of the 'greatest team on earth' dribble that will be peddled out.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

just because we won’t win the league doesn’t mean we’ve gone stale!

We’re 2nd in the league, on the verge of Wembley, still in FA Cup and topped our CL group with a game to come against Real Madrid.

But you think we should consider replacing the manager because we won’t win the league for the third year on the bounce.

Astonishing level of disrespect towards Guardiola for what he has achieved here - but more importantly a huge disrespect towards him for thinking he won’t continue to be successful with city.

Di you read what I posted properly and, if you did, did you understand what I was saying? I suspect that the answer to the first is no. People say there's no humour on here any more but it's also getting harder to have an intelligent discussion.

 

[lionheart]

It could have been worse. A last minute equalizer scored by Fulham next weekend would mean a reply down south, better we concede such goals (again) in the league right now. As for the VAR nonsense, we would have been livid if the ball had struck our defender and a penalty had been awarded. As for the Pep talk, he remains the best manager around, so please no more rubbish about replacing him.

 

[northwichblue]

The morning after the night before.

Yep, I’m still fucking gutted.

Went to a party last night gutted, I had a drink gutted, i had a laugh gutted, got home gutted, went to sleep gutted, woke up gutted.

Snap

 

[simon23]

We will never replace Pep with a better manager any time soon and probably never. That doesn't preclude us having lots of success without him but Pep is absolutely exceptional. However, as he points out time after time, he (and any manager) has to have the right players and it's the club's job - and not any one individual (this is not a dig at anyone) - to provide him with them. And, whatever lengths the club goes to and however much it spends, not every signing will work out or work out instantly.

I think we do need a rebuild but it's a mini one: we have a lot of young talent. What is also needed, regardless of the manager, is constant refreshing of the squad so that major rebuilds are never required in the future. Getting that right takes time but what we have now is a framework of how we want to play and the club just needs to get (even) better at executing the strategy it has chosen.

I think it is a major rebuild . - not in numbers but in the improtance and quality of players/people we are going to have to replace

Kompany - no replacement as of yet - one of the best centre halves the prem has ever seen and added to that the leadership quality he had - that in itself is very hard to duplicate

David Silva - Foden is seen as the replacement and there is nothing to suggest he can't do this - BUT he has a lot to prove and there is a long way to go. Pep has come out and said we ARE NOT going to replace silva - and we have Foden and Bernardo Silva as his replacements - but again, like Kompany, replacing Silva's technical ability is one thing - replacing his ability to dictate a game even without the ball is another almost impossible task

Kun - the biggest task of all - maybe impossible? GJ is a fine striker BUT he aint and never will be a Kun replacement. He wont go onto score the important goals in tight games (think the Kun goal in the 2-1 vs the scousers last year) - GJ never scores that ever. Its those goals that Kun has consistently scored that make him irreplaceable not just the numbers he posts. We are going to have to break our transfer record by a long way to get anyone near the calibre and we may still not get close.....

Ferna - his influence and ability is underrated - he may go another 12 months but we need to replace him - another huge task as not only is he an expert in his main position, his ability as a utility player is beyond anything Ive ever seen - he may not be the greatest centre half the prem has ever seen or will see but he still outshines most who call it their day job - he would do that as a fullback as well (Peps comments about him in the past tell you everything you need to know) - finding a player with such qualities is extremely hard

And in the middle of all that you have the Pep question -Id love him to stay forever and as you clearly say I dont think we will ever have a better manager - but the only way this rebuild works for the club is that we are rebuilding with a new manager in mind (unless we somehow manage to persuade Pep to stay for another 2-3 . years after his contract runs out - Id love this to happen but the man clearly has ambitions and some of them may be outside of football back in his home country).


Added to that you then have the general squad rebuild that you say needs to happen every few years.....I guess this is why Txixi and Ferran are paid so much - where do you even start?!?!?!!?

 

[balotellishaircut]

Di you read what I posted properly and, if you did, did you understand what I was saying? I suspect that the answer to the first is no. People say there's no humour on here any more but it's also getting harder to have an intelligent discussion.

I agree with you mate, you never mentioned anything about replacing Pep, you said it's a cycle of when Pep goes a new manager comes in with new ideas and the cycle begins again.