Another new Brexit thread

[Blue Hefner]

It will be a points based system similar to the Australian one so yes, i know the broad outline of it.



Pity you dont do the same when you dont know the details yourself yes?



Whats costs? Unless you know the full detail and wish to share then im going to say you are taking a complete guess here?

Round and round we go..........

Time + effort = cost. Whilst the staff are administrating this they could and should be doing their day job

 

[Metal Biker]

I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected but isn't it the situation now that under FOM people can come to the UK from within the EU and then look for a job, of which there are plenty in the care industry as well as various other service industries (Pret a manger anyone). I'd be surpsised if unqualifed people come to the UK specifically looking for a job in care- it's poorly paid and difficult work but it is no doubt one of the options once you are here. I would also be surprised if there were a load of EU residents, under a new points based system who are likely to think it worht the effort to go through the process of applying for permission to move to another country for a low paid job when they could move anyewhere else in the EU and not be restriced to a particular employer (my experience, limited as it is of points based systems is that work permits are for specific jobs, not to generally give you the right to move to a country and then seek work).

Care workers outnumber nurses to a large degree in most care settings, whether it is hopsital (NHS) based or private care homes. The staff teams in these places can be pretty transient, constantly changing as people move from one care home to another or from one low paid job to an easier one eg on the tills at Tesco.

I'm sure that under a points based system any nurse who wants to come and work in the UK will be welcome, doctors too and other health professionals, and they might redress the balance of the increasing numbers going in opposite directions to Oz, NZ (how I wish I could persaude my family that is where we should be), Canada etc.

As for those expecting a glut of applications from "foreigners" to come and take our low paid care assistant jobs, and to have to commit to those particular employers only, I wouldn't hold your breath

The arrogance and ignorance contained within this post...

This country and some of it's citizens has needed a culture shock like brexit for years if this sort of attitude towards migrants and low paid work is prevalent.

 

[Blue Hefner]

You don't see the issues with FOM and smuggling, but you do with a points-based system?

K.

No. For obvious reasons

 

[blueinsa]

Time + effort = cost. Whilst the staff are administrating this they could and should be doing their day job

Administering what?

You dont know so have invented something to fit your argument is the answer.

lets see what policy emerges and how its handled before declaring it good/bad.

Australia seems happy enough with theirs so i hope we too will be equally as happy with our version.

 

[Metal Biker]

No. For obvious reasons

Which are?

 

[journolud]

The arrogance and ignorance contained within this post...

This country and some of it's citizens has needed a culture shock like brexit for years if this sort of attitude towards migrants and low paid work is prevalent.

I'm not sure how you've concluded from that that I'm arrogant and ignorant. What is the attitude towards migrants that I have expressed? Care work is difficult and it is low paid (relatively) and in that respect is equivalent to a number of other low paid, even minimum wage jobs.

I remember from previous posts that you have explained you are in a low paid job yourself. I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to belittle you, migrants, the low paid or care workers. I'm talking from my experience working in the NHS and care homes. There is a staffing crisis in care, use of agency is massive and trunover is high. I expect the pool of labour to be smaller once we have a points based migration system, perhaps you can reassure me how it won't be instead of making assumptions about how I view people.

 

[BobKowalski]

And this is why it’s currently pointless talking about Brexit. This from Johnson is not what we have agreed so why stand up and utter this nonsense unless of course you intend for the U.K. to sign up to a customs union and elements of the Single Market which we keep ruling out whilst also ruling any ECJ oversight for the U.K. except for the areas we signed up to in the WAB. It’s incoherent bibble.

‘DUP's Sir Jeffrey Donaldson welcomes assurances from @BorisJohnson there will be unfettered access for goods travelling from NI to GB & asks will that commitment be the same for goods travelling the other way. "Emphatically it does" PM replies.’ @ utv

And this is pretty much the opposite of what the Govt was saying last week.

‘Sajid Javid says UK will prioritise EU trade deal over US’ @FT

We say one thing one week, then say or do the opposite the next. We ask the devolved Govts for consent to the WAB under the convention and then ignore them when they decline so why ask for consent or pretend they have an option? Next day we will then urge everyone to unite around Brexit after telling three out of four nations of our Union to do one.

Still you have to appreciate the lols I guess.

 

[Vic]

Cant be right mate as some of the most vocal business experts on Bluemoon have said it will never happen.

Quite the opposite in fact.

I'm sure there were plenty of Remainers who expected and still expect a net outflow of financial jobs from UK to EU.

I'm less sure you will find many Leavers who predicted that EU firms would have to open UK offices to deal with the red tape of our not being in the EU.

 

[KS55]

And this is why it’s currently pointless talking about Brexit. This from Johnson is not what we have agreed so why stand up and utter this nonsense unless of course you intend for the U.K. to sign up to a customs union and elements of the Single Market which we keep ruling out whilst also ruling any ECJ oversight for the U.K. except for the areas we signed up to in the WAB. It’s incoherent bibble.

‘DUP's Sir Jeffrey Donaldson welcomes assurances from @BorisJohnson there will be unfettered access for goods travelling from NI to GB & asks will that commitment be the same for goods travelling the other way. "Emphatically it does" PM replies.’ @ utv

And this is pretty much the opposite of what the Govt was saying last week.

‘Sajid Javid says UK will prioritise EU trade deal over US’ @FT

We say one thing one week, then say or do the opposite the next. We ask the devolved Govts for consent to the WAB under the convention and then ignore them when they decline so why ask for consent or pretend they have an option? Next day we will then urge everyone to unite around Brexit after telling three out of four nations of our Union to do one.

Still you have to appreciate the lols I guess.

Your crit is well aimed, but I counsel caution. Any gov headed by Boris will be full of blooviating, but the trick is to wait till they actually do something substantive and judge that.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Administering what?

You dont know so have invented something to fit your argument is the answer.

lets see what policy emerges and how its handled before declaring it good/bad.

Australia seems happy enough with theirs so i hope we too will be equally as happy with our version.

I am going off current experience of applying for work visas

 

[BobKowalski]

Your crit is well aimed, but I counsel caution. Any gov headed by Boris will be full of blooviating, but the trick is to wait till they actually do something substantive and judge that.

Agreed.

But I also think a Govt and the PM should learn to use its language with a greater degree of care as ultimately it has to mean something and if it doesn’t then what is the point of public debate and discussion?

 

[blueinsa]

I am going off current experience of applying for work visas

I've applied for visas.

It never stopped me moving and working for nearly 5 years and i accepted the rules and went about doing what i needed to do so that i could live and work.

Millions of others do the exact same thing all the time and so too will EU nationals wanting to come to the UK in the future.

My opinion is it wont stop those really wanting to do so.

 

[dave_blue12]

Why not read up on a subject before spouting shit ?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....is-it-and-what-would-its-impact-be-in-the-uk/

I realise it's not the Brexit way but it prevents you looking completely stupid ;)

 

[Metal Biker]

I'm not sure how you've concluded from that that I'm arrogant and ignorant. What is the attitude towards migrants that I have expressed? Care work is difficult and it is low paid (relatively) and in that respect is equivalent to a number of other low paid, even minimum wage jobs.

I remember from previous posts that you have explained you are in a low paid job yourself. I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to belittle you, migrants, the low paid or care workers. I'm talking from my experience working in the NHS and care homes. There is a staffing crisis in care, use of agency is massive and trunover is high. I expect the pool of labour to be smaller once we have a points based migration system, perhaps you can reassure me how it won't be instead of making assumptions about how I view people.

You want me to explain the argument against cheap labour to you? TL;DR it's not beneficial to those of low incomes.

You say you work in the NHS; can you tell me what is one of the most stress inducing and physically impactful type of job that affects people? Shift work. What are the effects of doing shift work? Increased risk of certain cancers, heart disease, ulcers, gastrointestinal problems, obesity, insufficient sleeping patterns, mental health issues, depression, anxiety, increased risk of strokes, to name but a few. Which jobs are most likely to offer shift work employment? Retail/Service industry.

An "easy job" like retail and it's health risks is often forgotten about except when people rage that a store is closed on a particular day. Then suddenly it's importance to them is made clear. Maybe there wouldn't be a need for more NHS staff if people were kept healthier, not having to work from 7-3am one day and then 9-6pm another, being paid properly or worrying about the next set of bills. But hey, if it's so awful, just quit and find a better job right? Well if everyone in retail/service had that attitude, people had best be prepared to say goodbye to many lifestyle institutions they often take for granted. It's not just your attitude towards migrants, it's your attitude that you think people won't do the jobs required in this country. They will, but we refuse to be exploited and as so long as the EU supports a system that exploits workers, that exploitation will continue. We want it to stop.

 

[Metal Biker]

I've applied for visas.

It never stopped me moving and working for nearly 5 years and i accepted the rules and went about doing what i needed to do so that i could live and work.

Millions of others do the exact same thing all the time and so too will EU nationals wanting to come to the UK in the future.

My opinion is it wont stop those really wanting to do so.

Yeah but no-one from Europe ever moved to the UK before the EU was formed.

Oh wait... ;)

 

[blueinsa]

Why not read up on a subject before spouting shit ?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....is-it-and-what-would-its-impact-be-in-the-uk/

I realise it's not the Brexit way but it prevents you looking completely stupid ;)

Thanks for that dave.

I'm even more for an Australian style points system now.

 

[blueinsa]

Yeah but no-one from Europe ever moved to the UK before the EU was formed.

Oh wait... ;)

Just pretend everything that is being said is true and go along with it.

Its a bit like playing a board game with the kids in which they invent rules, you go along with them and allow them to "win" as it avoids the temper tantrum that follows.

 

[journolud]

You want me to explain the argument against cheap labour to you? TL;DR it's not beneficial to those of low incomes.

You say you work in the NHS; can you tell me what is one of the most stress inducing and physically impactful type of job that affects people? Shift work. What are the effects of doing shift work? Increased risk of certain cancers, heart disease, ulcers, gastrointestinal problems, obesity, insufficient sleeping patterns, mental health issues, depression, anxiety, increased risk of strokes, to name but a few. Which jobs are most likely to offer shift work employment? Retail/Service industry.

An "easy job" like retail and it's health risks is often forgotten about except when people rage that a store is closed on a particular day. Then suddenly it's importance to them is made clear. Maybe there wouldn't be a need for more NHS staff if people were kept healthier, not having to work from 7-3am one day and then 9-6pm another, being paid properly or worrying about the next set of bills. But hey, if it's so awful, just quit and find a better job right? Well if everyone in retail/service had that attitude, people had best be prepared to say goodbye to many lifestyle institutions they often take for granted. It's not just your attitude towards migrants, it's your attitude that you think people won't do the jobs required in this country. They will, but we refuse to be exploited and as so long as the EU supports a system that exploits workers, that exploitation will continue. We want it to stop.

Totally missing the point in your determkination to take offence. No, you don't need to explain the arguments against cheap labour to me because I don't advocate it, I'm commenting on it as a fact.

Again, I don't think I've said retail is an "easy" job, if I have inferred that apologies but I suspect it's the inference you wanted to take to fuel your rage. I referred to it as an alternative job. It's a near 24 hour society that we have all got used to and of course to have that then peoples working hours need to be flexible, to the detriment at times of the workers. Not all though, some people want the benefits of doing different shifts.

No need to lecture me on the effects of shift work either, I've been doing it for 35 years.

 

[Metal Biker]

Totally missing the point in your determkination to take offence. No, you don't need to explain the arguments against cheap labour to me because I don't advocate it, I'm commenting on it as a fact.

Again, I don't think I've said retail is an "easy" job, if I have inferred that apologies but I suspect it's the inference you wanted to take to fuel your rage. I referred to it as an alternative job. It's a near 24 hour society that we have all got used to and of course to have that then peoples working hours need to be flexible, to the detriment at times of the workers. Not all though, some people want the benefits of doing different shifts.

No need to lecture me on the effects of shift work either, I've been doing it for 35 years.

You denigrated one job sector to enhance your own; not cool. You advocate the need of cheap labour as some sort of necessary evil, it isn't. We accept it as a necessary evil because the alternative costs businesses a little more, to make certain products and their lifestyle more affordable for those who can already afford it, whereas those who never could attain that lifestyle still can't. "We live in a 24 hour society", yeah and what good has it done us all? A burning planet and mentally strained and abused humanity with oceans full of plastic.

Either we make FOM available for everyone, EU migrant and non-EU migrant alike (which would be a logistical and administrative nightmare) or we level the playing field with our own Australian-syle Points based system. It doesn't have to be the same as the Aussies, it can be made more lenient, or to what requirements we need, but what it needs to be is fair to everyone, not just those with an EU passport, and end the exploitation of cheap labour through requirement and necessity.

 

[Vic]

how many boats are there for migrants crossing the channel leaving the uk for the eu for a better life?

I'm not sure whether that's tongue in cheek or just daft. How did they get from Syria/Africa to the UK?

And we've taken a pathetic number of asylum seekers compared to Germany, France, Italy, Austria and Sweden.