Another new Brexit thread

[inbetween]

But the reality is quite simple

The truth is simply what started these exchanges - some posters wish to demean the consideration of English people of what just might be in their best interests. There is no substantive/credible focal point for an English nationalist movement as there has been for Scottish nationalism with the SNP.

We English are not agitating for anything other than to Leave an increasingly political construct - the bollocks posted is just lazy distraction by Remainers and nationalists of other countries.

People like Farage have often touted a front of 'we hate the EU, but not Europe' but the truth of the arguments made is we will be leaving both.

Immigration for example is high on the list of many Brexiteers yet on immigration we are putting barriers between us and Europe which means we are indeed leaving both.

The goal of the government has to be to preserve trade etc which is important, BUT, it is more important to preserve our participation in things like the European arrest warrant which only exists for a very important common good.

There is nothing wrong with a nationalistic/patriotic type rise but we have to challenge any future system that is driven solely by destructive xenophobia and not common sense.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No mention of today's Nissan report in tre FT then? It clearly doesn't suit Remainer objectives.

From nearly four years of telling everyone how thick the Mackems are, to having to absorb the possibility
that they may have actually guaranteed their future, maybe it doesn't.
That aside, the car industry has been the one business consistently presented by remainers as why Brexit will fail,
as it's the easiest target, yet the industry is on its arse worldwide, tooling up for diesel for years, then having to scrap
it almost overnight, the massive investments needed for electric cars, and many other negatives have seen a marked impression
on companies. We've had the finance industry apparently decamping en masse to Frankfurt, only to hear recently that thousands of
EU operator are moving here.
And on and on we go.

 

[blueinsa]

From nearly four years of telling everyone how thick the Mackems are, to having to absorb the possibility
that they may have actually guaranteed their future, maybe it doesn't.
That aside, the car industry has been the one business consistently presented by remainers as why Brexit will fail,
as it's the easiest target, yet the industry is on its arse worldwide, tooling up for diesel for years, then having to scrap
it almost overnight, the massive investments needed for electric cars, and many other negatives have seen a marked impression
on companies. We've had the finance industry apparently decamping en masse to Frankfurt, only to hear recently that thousands of
EU operator are moving here.
And on and on we go.

UK Gov announces this morning plans to bring forward by 5 years a complete ban on all sales of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars from 2040 to 2035.

The world over the car industry will face a huge challenge and its fuck all to do with brexit and everything to do with the climate change debate.

 

[Metal Biker]

UK Gov announces this morning plans to bring forward by 5 years a complete ban on all sales of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars from 2040 to 2035.

The world over the car industry will face a huge challenge and its fuck all to do with brexit and everything to do with the climate change debate.

Don't take that crumb of comfort away from them.

 

[blueinsa]

Don't take that crumb of comfort away from them.

I couldn't if i even tried.

Like trying to take a childs comfort blanket away.

It isn't lost on me that the vast majority of them are also very vocal on the need to change the way we live as well.

 

[Metal Biker]

I couldn't if i even tried.

Like trying to take a childs comfort blanket away.

Not to mention the UK is looking to become one of the world's leading producers of EV's.

 

[west didsblue]

From nearly four years of telling everyone how thick the Mackems are, to having to absorb the possibility
that they may have actually guaranteed their future, maybe it doesn't.
That aside, the car industry has been the one business consistently presented by remainers as why Brexit will fail,
as it's the easiest target, yet the industry is on its arse worldwide, tooling up for diesel for years, then having to scrap
it almost overnight, the massive investments needed for electric cars, and many other negatives have seen a marked impression
on companies. We've had the finance industry apparently decamping en masse to Frankfurt, only to hear recently that thousands of
EU operator are moving here.
And on and on we go.

Back in the real world, of the top car manufacturing nations, the fall in production from 2016 to 2018 has been much worse than most in the UK at -11.7%. It's got worse in 2019 but I haven't seen the figures yet. As far car production being on it's arse worldwide, it actually went up marginally in that time period albeit mostly because of increased production in the developing world. But compared to similarly developed countries, the UK is at the bottom end of the rankings.
And the "thousands" of EU operators in financial services moving here are actually just setting up small front offices to allow them to continue trading here. Their main operations aren't moving here. Contrast that with the movement of operations and assets from here to the EU. There's really no comparison.

 

[west didsblue]

UK Gov announces this morning plans to bring forward by 5 years a complete ban on all sales of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars from 2040 to 2035.

The world over the car industry will face a huge challenge and its fuck all to do with brexit and everything to do with the climate change debate.

You don't think integrated supply chains relying on frictionless logistics across national borders will be a factor for UK production.

Fair enough.

 

[blueinsa]

Not to mention the UK is looking to become one of the world's leading producers of EV's.

Yeah but we are all alone in the world and helpless without someone holding our hands so it wont ever happen.

 

[blueparrot]

UK Gov announces this morning plans to bring forward by 5 years a complete ban on all sales of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars from 2040 to 2035.

The world over the car industry will face a huge challenge and its fuck all to do with brexit and everything to do with the climate change debate.

Surely that provides an opportunity for somewhere to be at the forefront of the changeover to new energy vehicles and the production then. Don’t see how putting up customs barriers helps us attract that new huge investment from the big manufacturers.

 

[blueinsa]

Surely that provides an opportunity for somewhere to be at the forefront of the changeover to new energy vehicles and the production then. Don’t see how putting up customs barriers helps us attract that new huge investment from the big manufacturers.

Is it only manufacturers from within the EU allowed to invest and there is nothing to suggest us leaving the EU would stop them anyway, nothing.

 

[Metal Biker]

Surely that provides an opportunity for somewhere to be at the forefront of the changeover to new energy vehicles and the production then. Don’t see how putting up customs barriers helps us attract that new huge investment from the big manufacturers.

Yes, it does provide an opportunity. There's a big ol' world out there.

 

[blueparrot]

Is it only manufacturers from within the EU allowed to invest and there is nothing to suggest us leaving the EU would stop them anyway, nothing.

No, why would any manufacturer from outside the EU set up a new european plant in the UK if we have customs and tariffs between us and the area where the parts come from. When they could base it in the EU and have no customs worries. From a business point it makes no sense to me. If I was investing I’d want a production line of least resistance.
Makes no sense to me to rule out deals that would remove these obstacles when such a deal would be easy to do.

 

[west didsblue]

Surely that provides an opportunity for somewhere to be at the forefront of the changeover to new energy vehicles and the production then. Don’t see how putting up customs barriers helps us attract that new huge investment from the big manufacturers.

It's ok though, no other countries have thought about investing in EVs so all the investment will come here in spite of the additional obstacles needlessly being brought in by the government.

In reality China are miles ahead in the EV race and introducing hurdles for manufacturers to overcome isn't going to help us.

 

[blueparrot]

Yes, it does provide an opportunity. There's a big ol' world out there.

We dont have a car industry we rely on foreign manufacturers, those that are here are here because of our proximity to the european market. If they want to sell in America they'll set up there or south America not here. Anywhere else in the world they will manufacture closer to that market than the UK.

 

[aguero93:20]

The goal of the government has to be to preserve trade etc which is important, BUT, it is more important to preserve our participation in things like the European arrest warrant which only exists for a very important common good.

Few big problems with that, not least that Germany can't constitutionally extradite citizens to a non-EU country and that Europol answer to the European Courts.

 

[Metal Biker]

We dont have a car industry we rely on foreign manufacturers, those that are here are here because of our proximity to the european market. If they want to sell in America they'll set up there or south America not here. Anywhere else in the world they will manufacture closer to that market than the UK.

Except Europeans don't buy Japanese cars as much as the UK does. BMW builds Mini's in the UK because we buy lots of Mini's.

That is why they build their cars here. Nissan's recent backtracking should be an indicator of that. With electric motors it becomes a level playing field, a fresh new industry.

 

[west didsblue]

We dont have a car industry we rely on foreign manufacturers, those that are here are here because of our proximity to the european market. If they want to sell in America they'll set up there or south America not here. Anywhere else in the world they will manufacture closer to that market than the UK.

We've got JLR, but even they have set up a plant in Slovakia.

Long term, unless there is a comprehensive deal that guarantees frictionless logistics, the UK car industry will end up going to low volume high end products only unless one of the manufacturers takes a punt on primarily making cars for the UK domestic market like Nissan have intimated they might depending on how things go.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

There we have reference to colonizing and empire. It is pretty much exclusively Remainers that make such references

There is a lot of bollocks (not aimed at you) posted by people that are without the ability, IMO, to present arguments coherently. There has been a trait over years of Remainers associating Leave supporters to anything that would be viewed as a 'negative theme' and stating that Brexit is driven by people hankering after days of yore fits that shallow level of thinking - it is just bollocks and demonstrates ignorance

The desire to leave the EU is the desire to leave a bloated and increasingly politically driven construct based on the experience of past decades and the ability to assess the journey of the next decades

Reference is made by Remainers to 'days of yore' as an attempt, in their narrow scope of analysis, to substantiate that:

Irish Nationalism, Scottish Nationalism and EU 'nationalism' = something noble and to be greatly admired

English people showing a bit of care about what happens to them = Something to be decried as 'little Englander' / jingoism'

It could be readily argued that all these references to empire and colonizing is in reality the need for some to hanker back to those days long gone to justify their sense of grievance in 2020. There seems to be a desire for the 2020 citizens of the UK to both suffer and apologize for history.

Re your statement that "English nationalism seems to want to break from the EU but not the UK."

Apart from being a statement of the obvious because the topic is EU membership - I assume that the intent is to reflect that the English want to retain residual parts of an Empire

If that is the case it is not borne out by the reality of this century​

I honestly don't know if the poster I was answering is a remainer or a leaver. It doesn't matter. I brought up the empire as an answer to his point of dilution of Englishness, which he seemed to be blaming on the EU. That wasn't a slight on your history, merely a reference to it that he cannot overlook.
The second part in red is as you say obvious. That is the point that was being made again, that your version of English pride (I'll refrain from calling it nationalism) seem at odds with his.
Although you are both arguing the same point or side.

I would argue that English nationalism leads to the same conclusion that Scottish nationalism does regarding the Union (UK). You don't agree that that is your aim or those that think like you.
That's fair enough I understand that. I still believe that's the final destination however unless English nationalism is either separated from the pride and interests that you express, of which I'll repeat, I see nothing wrong with and the images that are allowed be presented by the likes of Farage's following.
This is why I maintain that you need to redefine English Nationalism in the media. When I say you, I mean those that represent you.
Boris is doing a good job so far in your eyes. But he is not averse to pandering to the exact same emotions that you decry as something the remain side make up about the nationalist following.
You call it Little England. I don't really know what that is.
One thing that is true is there is a lot of bollocks written by all sides in here myself included, I'm sure.
One other thing is true, that none of us are right all of the time, no matter how much we think we are.
All could do with looking at the truth in other's opinions.

Only time will tell who was right. And will it really matter then?

 

[blueparrot]

Except Europeans don't buy Japanese cars as much as the UK does. BMW builds Mini's in the UK because we buy lots of Mini's.

That is why they build their cars here. Nissan's recent backtracking should be an indicator of that. With electric motors it becomes a level playing field, a fresh new industry.

They are built here with parts from all over the eu, there will be threshold wher if that isnt frictionless it becomes more viable to have just one part crossing that border once. The finished product. Simple business planning. As there is no one making us have a border with friction why self impose one. Which is what Johnson suggested yesterday
Simply because we are getting. Johnson/ Cummings brexit.