Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

There has been an increasing drive from Remainers to conflate the subject of Brexit with the government mis-management of the pandemic - not just you - it is an increasing theme.

Why - genuine question - because it seem a pretty desperate ploy.

Leaving the EU is fundamental change that will underpin the well-being of the UK for generations to come, during which many governments (Labour or Tory) will come and go. Some of them will be brilliant and others will be shite

The performance of this government in other areas can be seen to be a disappointment - they have so far only done one thing of significance with regards to Brexit - get us out of the EU

So on that basis - and specific to the subject of EU membership - it is clearly self-evident that this government has a far better record than many/any that have gone before

Obvious examples of previous governments which performed much worse - on the subject of EU membership include:

• Majors - the lying fucker used the promise of a referendum to get elected and then reneged
• Blairs -the lying fucker used the promise of a referendum to get elected and then reneged
• May - the spineless cow didn't even have the courage to renege on the commitment to Leave - she instead sought to tie the UK into EU vassalage for generations to come

This government may have shown incompetence in other areas - but for me, the test on Brexit will be if they hold their resolve and get the UK out cleanly - then business leaders and the City can lead the way on flourishing. They and professional advisors will steer the government on required policies and actions.

You see competence where there is none. Brexit is happening, I am not contesting that in the slightest, I want it to happen with minimum harm to U.K. citizens. I think this government wants a no deal Brexit. I genuinely hope I am mistaken but I see nothing to suggest otherwise unless they capitulate which would be the end of Johnson so unlikely imo. So when you see me criticise this government it is because I think they are incompetent liars and I will state that whatever the particular fuckup is regardless of subject. I have zero trust in them. Hope I’m being clear enough.

 

[Saddleworth2]

And.....

That is for the UK and EU to decide

Continued passporting would be the best outcome - but not to be traded for accepting continued EU controls and ECJ governance

Continued passporting would be a terrible outcome if it meant such acquiescence ​

So there will be a hit on both sides.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Thanks for posting some positive news

In many ways - given the EU's strategic plans in the Financial Sector that have been available for a few years (no - I do not expect you to be aware) - this is the right time to make the break when the impact will be greater on the EU than it would be in a few years after they have been able to implement their plans.

What - no link?

Perhaps, on this occasion you have actually read the article and spotted that there was insufficient bad news - so you had to make up for that by provinding a list that has nothing whatsoever to do with this announcement????

Let me help:

"Britain’s financial services minister John Glen said on Wednesday that the country’s financial services industry was “world class” and was ready for whatever Brexit outcome.

“I continue to believe that we are still well placed as a sector, whatever the specific outcomes are of negotiations ahead of us in the second half of this year,” he said on a webinar."

and:

"The UK left the EU in January and a transition period ends on December 31st. After that, without a preferential deal, British banks, insurers and asset managers will be limited to the kind of access given by the bloc to the United States, Japan and Singapore.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...nks-to-get-ready-for-no-deal-brexit-1.4269591

Well won't that be a disaster - London will be limited to the same status as those pauper financial centres US, Japan and Singapore!!

Quick answer to the Financial Centre stuff ..... No deal leaves the Insurance and Banking sector with 'no pass-porting rights' so we wont be able to trade within the Eu ... thats a fairly big chunk of income gone. But for all your waffle your missing the point.

Johnson and Cummings managed to concoct the illusion that they made a 'last minute' breakthrough in order to secure a 'deal' with the Eu. This was, of course, another lie. In the end they folded and agreed to put an internal border down the UK (how many would've voted for Brexit if that had been outlined at the start? ) They then ..... amazingly lied about that.

They also lied at the start ... but that subjects been covered enough .... its a shame that you don't apply the same level of forensic questioning to the party that you support that you do to peoples posts on a forum

 

[mcfc1632]

You see competence where there is none. Brexit is happening, I am not contesting that in the slightest, I want it to happen with minimum harm to U.K. citizens. I think this government wants a no deal Brexit. I genuinely hope I am mistaken but I see nothing to suggest otherwise unless they capitulate which would be the end of Johnson so unlikely imo. So when you see me criticise this government it is because I think they are incompetent liars and I will state that whatever the particular fuckup is regardless of subject. I have zero trust in them. Hope I’m being clear enough.

No I do not - please demonstrate where in my post I am claiming government competence. I have slagged off May/Robbins previously and referred to Johnson as a bumbler - I want him to leave matters to professionals

Also you are demonstrating strange inconsistency/lack of detail IMO.

You say:

a) I want it to happen with minimum harm to U.K. citizens. - and? - shouldn't we all?? I think that you mean that you just want to have your version and deny Leavers their version

b) I think this government wants a no deal Brexit. and? - if you do indeed accept that the UK is leaving - then shouldn't we all is my view.

We could have had a deal with May's unfettered backstop - and destroyed the UK as an independent nation.

We could readily have a deal now - all we have to do is accept the EU's control over the UK in all sectors and their control over our key policies, along with ECJ governance - and destroy the UK as an independent nation.

If - given we are where we are - we are to Leave and be an independent nation then we must not accept these controls. And it is only if the EU refuse to accommodate the conditions that reflect an independent nation would we end up with no-deal. If so - then so be it, because that will be on them and the only thing May ever said that was right was that No-Deal is indeed better than a bad deal.

c) I genuinely hope I am mistaken but I see nothing to suggest otherwise unless they capitulate which would be the end of Johnson so unlikely imo. Given the above - why should the UK capitulate?? - I suspect that you are, in reality, not really firm in your statement that "Brexit is happening, I am not contesting that in the slightest..." as you think that you are.

 

[mcfc1632]

So there will be a hit on both sides.

Of course - but I have not seen a Remainer on here ever mention the 'hit on the EU side'

There have been no end of posts bigging up Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin as if they can just replace the City of London - which just demonstrates the level of understanding

I have seen no posts from Remainers discussing or showing any understanding of the EU's well established intent to manage a transition away from London anyway - which is why I suggest now is a better time to act.

There will indeed be a hit on both sides - why do Remainers want the scope/impact of such hits to always be determined by the EU?

 

[mcfc1632]

Quick answer to the Financial Centre stuff ..... No deal leaves the Insurance and Banking sector with 'no pass-porting rights' so we wont be able to trade within the Eu ... thats a fairly big chunk of income gone. But for all your waffle your missing the point.

Johnson and Cummings managed to concoct the illusion that they made a 'last minute' breakthrough in order to secure a 'deal' with the Eu. This was, of course, another lie. In the end they folded and agreed to put an internal border down the UK (how many would've voted for Brexit if that had been outlined at the start? ) They then ..... amazingly lied about that.

They also lied at the start ... but that subjects been covered enough .... its a shame that you don't apply the same level of forensic questioning to the party that you support that you do to peoples posts on a forum

Re the first part bolded - I am very confident indeed that I have a far greater grasp of the issue than you. Your level of knowledge in this area appears to be limited to mis-reading the headlines of articles and never bothering to read the content

Re the 2nd part I have bolded - I answered that comprehensively earlier - try and learn from valid information that is posted - it will help you.

 

[Saddleworth2]

No I do not - please demonstrate where in my post I am claiming government competence. I have slagged off May/Robbins previously and referred to Johnson as a bumbler - I want him to leave matters to professionals

Also you are demonstrating strange inconsistency/lack of detail IMO.

You say:

a) I want it to happen with minimum harm to U.K. citizens. - and? - shouldn't we all?? I think that you mean that you just want to have your version and deny Leavers their version

b) I think this government wants a no deal Brexit. and? - if you do indeed accept that the UK is leaving - then shouldn't we all is my view.

We could have had a deal with May's unfettered backstop - and destroyed the UK as an independent nation.

We could readily have a deal now - all we have to do is accept the EU's control over the UK in all sectors and their control over our key policies, along with ECJ governance - and destroy the UK as an independent nation.

If - given we are where we are - we are to Leave and be an independent nation then we must not accept these controls. And it is only if the EU refuse to accommodate the conditions that reflect an independent nation would we end up with no-deal. If so - then so be it, because that will be on them and the only thing May ever said that was right was that No-Deal is indeed better than a bad deal.

c) I genuinely hope I am mistaken but I see nothing to suggest otherwise unless they capitulate which would be the end of Johnson so unlikely imo. Given the above - why should the UK capitulate?? - I suspect that you are, in reality, not really firm in your statement that "Brexit is happening, I am not contesting that in the slightest..." as you think that you are.

All bollocks I’m afraid mate. You have a very vivid imagination that you project these thoughts as my own. My single point in this exchange is the incompetence and dishonesty of our government nothing more, nothing less. You seem to agree that is the case so what the hell are you expanding it for. So it’s clear I accept Brexit is happening. I want a deal that is fair to both parties. Now really, do you have to be so confrontational?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Of course - but I have not seen a Remainer on here ever mention the 'hit on the EU side'

There have been no end of posts bigging up Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin as if they can just replace the City of London - which just demonstrates the level of understanding

I have seen no posts from Remainers discussing or showing any understanding of the EU's well established intent to manage a transition away from London anyway - which is why I suggest now is a better time to act.

There will indeed be a hit on both sides - why do Remainers want the scope/impact of such hits to always be determined by the EU?

I’m a remainer and I have just posted that there will be a hit on both sides. Do yourself a favour and get your good lady to hide the raw meat.

 

[mcfc1632]

All bollocks I’m afraid mate. You have a very vivid imagination that you project these thoughts as my own. My single point in this exchange is the incompetence and dishonesty of our government nothing more, nothing less. You seem to agree that is the case so what the hell are you expanding it for. So it’s clear I accept Brexit is happening. I want a deal that is fair to both parties. Now really, do you have to be so confrontational?

Sorry - do not mean to be 'confrontational' - but I stand by what I said about a lack of detail from you

"I want a deal that is fair to both parties. …………"

What is that in this context???? Where do you draw your lines?

I am clear about where I draw mine - we must leave as an independent nation and not be subject to EU controls over our key policies nor subject to ECJ governance

That might mean that we end up with no-deal.

Black and white for me - No-Deal is dramatically better than a vassal state deal

It would be easier to debate your parameters if you described them

Just saying what you have in these last couple of posts is less considered content than I expect from you

Also - you are/were conflating Brexit with wider government competence

You are saying that I am claiming government competence - when I am not.

Sorry - let's just agree to disagree - I don't want friction but - IMO - these last couple of posts were the sort of vague / anti-government for the sake of it guff - that I do expect from others

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m a remainer and I have just posted that there will be a hit on both sides. Do yourself a favour and get your good lady to hide the raw meat.

I meant express the level of that hit - but yes at least you have mentioned it

Tell me about the hit on the EU side then - demonstrate the balance rather than make out it is only detriment to the UK

Tell me about the difficulties businesses across the EU will have if access to the City of London is denied them

Perhaps in my replies to you I am leaking a tone that is impacted by having been recently dealing with the childish bollocks of other Remainers - I will try to be more considered

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sorry - do not mean to be 'confrontational' - but I stand by what I said about a lack ode tail from you

"I want a deal that is fair to both parties. …………"

What is that in this context???? Where do you draw your lines?

I am clear about where I draw mine - we must leave as an independent nation and not be subject to EU controls over our key policies not ECJ governance

That might mean that we end up with no-deal.

Black and white for me - No-Deal is dramatically better than a vassal state deal

It would be easier to debate your parameters if you described them

Just saying what you have in these last couple of posts is less considered content than I expect from you

Also - you are/were conflating Brexit with wider government competence

You are saying that I am claiming government competence - when I am not.

Sorry - let's just agree to disagree - I don't want friction but - IMO - these last couple of posts were the sort of vague / anti-government for the sake of it guff - that I do expect from others

They were and intended to be anti government. They were rants of hatred. We have a pm who is ‘proud’ of his record. Just think about that for a second.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I meant express the level of that hit - but yes at least you have mentioned it

Tell me about the hit on the EU side then - demonstrate the balance rather than make out it is only detriment to the UK

Tell me about the difficulties businesses across the EU will have if access to the City of London is denied them

Perhaps in my replies to you I am leaking a tone that is impacted by having been recently dealing with the childish bollocks of other Remainers - I will try to be more considered

In what world is ‘there will be a hit on both sides’ unbalanced. I will leave things today as to continue we would just fall out and end up in a circular argument that neither of us would feel particularly pleased about. When I can muster the energy, let’s explore how ‘no deal’ would be an acceptable outcome for a Covid ravaged U.K. For now though, go and watch a couple of episodes of springwatch and let the wonder of nature enhance your feeling of wellbeing. You will feel much better for it.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Interesting to see the Remainers indulging in Revision - again

It does not seem so long ago that they were all giddy about how the omnipotent EU would simply never budge on anything and the UK would have to bow down and accept being tied to EU regulations for ever more

Oh - how they giggled when I used to point out the absolute truth that:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

and yet there was proof of this truth last autumn and here we are seeing it proven true again - but they cannot man up and accept that - they need to prevaricate and dissemble - lest they lose face it seems

And it is easy to see why the situation has become as it is - and the blame is at the door of Remainers. Of course our Remainer colleagues cannot face up to any truth that does not big up the EU and belittle the UK, but for we Leavers its is worth pointing out the simple truth(s) - and right up there is the issue planning for a viable no-deal and having the political will to use it.

2016 - the UK undertook a major democratic exercise to determine whether it should Remain or Leave the EU - and, by a clear majority. the UK electorate voted to Leave.

2017 - Autumn 2019 The EU representatives had the delightful sight of seeing that the UK PM and the person that she charged with representing the UK in negotiations were Remainers and that they were committed to undermining the mandate that they were given by the electorate.........…….

Personally I dont think they will budge, so there won't be a treaty when we exit transition on the 31st December.
The UK must be seen to be punished. We won't be of course as Covid-19 means we have to spend a fortune to deal with it. The costs of Brexit will be a mere bagatelle compared to that. As such the EU will simply shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Vic]

A simple truth that has been there all along. And if our biggest manufacturing plants are unsustainable and are shut down what happens to the small ones that supply them, and what happens to the small businesses in the communities that are dominated by them.

As I have said before any PM who takes us down this road will be gone within 6 months of trying to implement it, it would cost a fortune and decimate the economy. Yet brexiteers think this is some sort of stick we can beat the EU with....

It's actually worse now. Manufacturers everywhere will be looking for national rather than international supply chains. So not only will UK component firms face tariffs, they will face buyers wanting to buy local. (So will UK manufacturers, but there will be fewer of them. No matter, the Brexit economics guru Prof Minford predicted we'd give up making things - and growing food.)

 

[Vic]

Really pleased for you Vic. You must have been gutted when there was good news about this a few weeks ago.

Just surprised. The glee lay with those who perhaps didn't realise that it wouldn't be the last word, e.g.

And not a fucking jot can Germany or France now do about it.

Level playing field?

Don't think so.

My conscience is clear. I never wanted to disturb the system that enabled Nissan to build cars in Britain. I actually took not quite pride but appreciation that the first British-made car I'd had since my Talbot Horizon was a Sunderland-built Nissan. It's Leavers who were desperate to stop the good people of Sunderland having a chance to express second thoughts about Brexit.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Just surprised. The glee lay with those who perhaps didn't realise that it wouldn't be the last word, e.g.


My conscience is clear. I never wanted to disturb the system that enabled Nissan to build cars in Britain. I actually took not quite pride but appreciation that the first British-made car I'd had since my Talbot Horizon was a Sunderland-built Nissan. It's Leavers who were desperate to stop the good people of Sunderland having a chance to express second thoughts about Brexit.

Sunderland folk were pretty clear iirc.

 

[west didsblue]

A simple truth that has been there all along. And if our biggest manufacturing plants are unsustainable and are shut down what happens to the small ones that supply them, and what happens to the small businesses in the communities that are dominated by them.

As I have said before any PM who takes us down this road will be gone within 6 months of trying to implement it, it would cost a fortune and decimate the economy. Yet brexiteers think this is some sort of stick we can beat the EU with....

Frankly it’s bizarre that anyone can think that No Deal is some sort of realistic bargaining tool in our EU negotiations. They are either in complete denial or are utterly stupid. Having our walk away option as crashing and burning complete sectors of our own economy in the hope that somehow the EU will back down to save less than 10% of their exports is fanciful. In reality it would be a lot less than that because we’d still buy some of their stuff only pay more for it. However the fall in our exports to them will be much greater if/when multinational companies start to exit the UK because they can operate more efficiently in the Single Market and within a single customs area.

 

[Vic]

Thanks for posting some positive news

In many ways - given the EU's strategic plans in the Financial Sector that have been available for a few years (and no - I do not expect you to be aware) - this is the right time to make the break when the impact will be greater on the EU than it would be in a few years after they have been able to implement their plans.

What - no link?

Perhaps, on this occasion you have actually read the article and spotted that there was insufficient bad news - so you had to make up for that by provinding a list that has nothing whatsoever to do with this announcement????

Let me help:

"Britain’s financial services minister John Glen said on Wednesday that the country’s financial services industry was “world class” and was ready for whatever Brexit outcome.

“I continue to believe that we are still well placed as a sector, whatever the specific outcomes are of negotiations ahead of us in the second half of this year,” he said on a webinar."

and:

"The UK left the EU in January and a transition period ends on December 31st. After that, without a preferential deal, British banks, insurers and asset managers will be limited to the kind of access given by the bloc to the United States, Japan and Singapore.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...nks-to-get-ready-for-no-deal-brexit-1.4269591

Well won't that be a disaster - London will be limited to the same status as those pauper financial centres US, Japan and Singapore!!

Apart from the EU trade deals with Japan and Singapore.

 

[blueinsa]

Just surprised. The glee lay with those who perhaps didn't realise that it wouldn't be the last word, e.g.


My conscience is clear. I never wanted to disturb the system that enabled Nissan to build cars in Britain. I actually took not quite pride but appreciation that the first British-made car I'd had since my Talbot Horizon was a Sunderland-built Nissan. It's Leavers who were desperate to stop the good people of Sunderland having a chance to express second thoughts about Brexit.

Tell that to the people of Sunderland.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Sunderland folk were pretty clear iirc.

And most I have met and worked with and/or have worked at NISSAN or in the supply chain have regretted voting Leave ever since - and I have met over 100 of them. For the most part people up here were sick of Labour, bizarrely believed that the biggest threat to their jobs was posed by immigrants ( lowest level of immigrant population in the UK btw ) but what they were doing was in effect "sticking to to the man" - they wanted to lodge a protest and were shocked by what happened in the Referendum.

The GE was different - that was about how Corbyn was portrayed and many of them didn't believe yet again that we would leave the EU without having to recourse to a 2nd Referendum. In February I was working in Gateshead and a lass in the office had a husband who works there and is a shop steward and she was worried because he had been warned by Unite the plant will close on a No Deal result.

Neighbour over the road from me works in the supply chain says the vibes they get are the same. And that was before Covid and the dramatic fall in demand. If countries in the EU have struggling economies and rising unemployment then in the event of a No Deal the pressure will be to repatriate those jobs and build cars at home - that really threatens NISSAN as Renault and the French Govt are a major shareholder. Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port owned PSA and the French Govt ( production of the shared platform van at Luton is already set to end ) - MINI can go home to Germany - that way their Govts and companies bolster their own economies at the expense of ours - but hey why should they bother about the prospects for workers in a country that opted to leave the EU and try and start up as the only country in the world to trade just about solely on WTO rules?