UEFA FFP investigation - CAS decision to be announced Monday, 13th July 9.30am BST

[Man_City_Loyal]

I didn't realise they were allowing owner investment to make up for lost revenue, good news for City.

Do you have a link dom?

its been reported in the guardian :)

 

[patrickblue]

I think this has been the snapping point, from what I've heard.

It seems very much to be the case. He has always claimed that City have done nothing wrong and refrained from escalating things when fined in the interest of the future relationship with UEFA.
That's now all out of the window now.
In retrospect it might have been better to have challenged it then.

 

[domalino]

I didn't realise they were allowing owner investment to make up for lost revenue, good news for City.

Do you have a link dom?

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/newsid=2642261.html

Edit - Hmm can't find the reference to loans and/or owner investment that I'm certain I read earlier today, might be in a paper, I'll have a look.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

Spot-on. There still a lot of apologists for FFP in the media but essentially it is destroying European football by still allowing clubs to build up huge amounts of debt while not allowing fresh internal investment from outside. The French, Italian, and now German Leagues have become jokes. Spain is really just a two-club league. If it wasn't for Chelsea and City English football would have become another one-team league with no competition for United.
I used to enjoy the Bundesliga but it's like Scotland now. Clubs who tried to challenge like Wolfsburg and Leipzig have been strangled at birth. What do German football fans really want? In theory the fans-owner model is a good idea but why turn away external investors to strengthen the league. There is nothing fair about the way Bayern operate.

Once the Scousers box off the title, they’ll be the 5th Premier League winners in the FFP era - it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

Would Leicester have been able to win the league in 2016 had we been allowed to continue to invest heavily under Pellegrini, in the manner we had/have under Mancini and Guardiola? Probably not.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them. We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

One good thing about the current predicament is that it could be a catalyst for better scouting, better recruitment, incentivise player development and youth integration; more Kompanys, more Zabaletas, more SWPs, and fewer Stones and Cancelos.

 

[wayne71]

I think this has been the snapping point, from what I've heard.

From what you heard we were not foul of FFP in 2014, which went well. Hopefully you're not so far out this time, even a stopped clock....

 

[KS55]

Once the Scousers box off the title, they’ll be the 5th Premier League winners in the FFP era - it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

Would Leicester have been able to win the league in 2016 had we been allowed to continue to invest heavily under Pellegrini, in the manner we had/have under Mancini and Guardiola? Probably not.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them. We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

One good thing about the current predicament is that it could be a catalyst for better scouting, better recruitment, incentivise player development and youth integration; more Kompanys, more Zabaletas, more SWPs, and fewer Stones and Cancelos.

Interesting that you think we are part of the problem. That's what Tebag and Bayern say. Still, it makes more sense than the post BTL in the Grauniad yesterday that claimed lack of competition was the fault of fans for supporting the more successful teams.

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/newsid=2642261.html

Edit - Hmm can't find the reference to loans and/or owner investment that I'm certain I read earlier today, might be in a paper, I'll have a look.

We need PB or someone who knows what that all means for our situation us. I’ve read it and just picked up on the covid issue.

 

[Nicholas van Whatsisface]

Once the Scousers box off the title, they’ll be the 5th Premier League winners in the FFP era - it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

Would Leicester have been able to win the league in 2016 had we been allowed to continue to invest heavily under Pellegrini, in the manner we had/have under Mancini and Guardiola? Probably not.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them. We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

One good thing about the current predicament is that it could be a catalyst for better scouting, better recruitment, incentivise player development and youth integration; more Kompanys, more Zabaletas, more SWPs, and fewer Stones and Cancelos.

I'm not sure you can credit the competitiveness of our League with FFP - that seems a stretch of logic which doesn't feel remotely plausible. I'd be interested to know your perspective on specifically how the legislation has resulted in greater competitiveness in our League.

And that fact United and Arsenal haven't finished within the top 4 more often has more to do with exceptionally poor management (both sporting and administrative) at both clubs than anything to do with FFP.

Unencumbered by FFP, United have consistently outspent everyone else in the League on entirely the wrong players for a post-Ferguson rebuild with no clear recruitment strategy, and have appointed a series of very expensive yet wholly inappropriate Managers who haven't remotely worked out for them - all this whilst sticking with a CEO who's great at securing global partnerships but shite at running a football club. That has far more to do with their relative lack of success over the last decade than FFP.

I'd argue poor management at both United and Arsenal - as a result of Ferguson and Wenger respectively holding way too much power prior to their departures - left a vacuum of leadership and competence at both clubs (exacerbated at United by Gill leaving the same summer as Ferguson). Once these two finally retired, this lack of competence led to a complete capitulation at both clubs, creating an opportunity for other clubs to contend for trophies in a way that hadn't been possible during their dominance of the League. That's got a lot more to do with the greater spread of winners in English football than FFP.

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

its been reported in the guardian :)

Just read it thanks.

 

[domalino]

Once the Scousers box off the title, they’ll be the 5th Premier League winners in the FFP era - it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

Would Leicester have been able to win the league in 2016 had we been allowed to continue to invest heavily under Pellegrini, in the manner we had/have under Mancini and Guardiola? Probably not.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them. We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

One good thing about the current predicament is that it could be a catalyst for better scouting, better recruitment, incentivise player development and youth integration; more Kompanys, more Zabaletas, more SWPs, and fewer Stones and Cancelos.

Ok theres no way this post is written in good faith.

No one in their right mind would argue that 5 teams winning the league in 10 year is a sign of FFP working when 2 of those sides broke FFP (City and Leicester) and the other 3 were the richest clubs in the country before FFP.

 

[ancoats]

No, it's not a free year.

This year is just merged into next. So if you spend 100m this year, you have to make it all up next year to balance things out. in 2022 they'll be looking at 2019, [2020+2021] and 2022 as the reporting years.

Lost revenue that can be directly attributed to the pandemic (match day, broadcast differences year on year) can be made up through owner investment or loans, but not spending like transfers.

you said the magic word right there (owners)
if you can add your own money through owner investment or loans then why is there FFP in the first place ??

this is why manchester city 2 year ban stink on many fronts. and first we was punished by a £49 million fine and squad reduction ? and if what your saying owners can give loans to a club than what have manchester city done wrong ? if you think about all the prize money city have won over the last 10 years and add tv money sponsorship money. then it will add up to more than what the owners paid for the club in the first place ?

its all bollocks by uefa and the FFP and all the rules and changes ? you think if city did what the elite did we would get away with it

 

[SilverFox2]

I think this has been the snapping point, from what I've heard.

I seem to remember a statement by Mr K. stating that CAS was first stage.?

 

[Manchester33]

I'm not sure you can credit the competitiveness of our League with FFP - that seems a stretch of logic which doesn't feel remotely plausible. I'd be interested to know your perspective on specifically how the legislation has resulted in greater competitiveness in our League.

And that fact United and Arsenal haven't finished within the top 4 more often has more to do with exceptionally poor management (both sporting and administrative) at both clubs than anything to do with FFP.

Unencumbered by FFP, United have consistently outspent everyone else in the League on entirely the wrong players for a post-Ferguson rebuild with no clear recruitment strategy, and have appointed a series of very expensive yet wholly inappropriate Managers who haven't remotely worked out for them - all this whilst sticking with a CEO who's great at securing global partnerships but shite at running a football club. That has far more to do with their relative lack of success over the last decade than FFP.

I'd argue poor management at both United and Arsenal - as a result of Ferguson and Wenger respectively holding way too much power prior to their departures - left a vacuum of leadership and competence at both clubs (exacerbated at United by Gill leaving the same summer as Ferguson). Once these two finally retired, this lack of competence led to a complete capitulation at both clubs, creating an opportunity for other clubs to contend for trophies in a way that hadn't been possible during their dominance of the League. That's got a lot more to do with the greater spread of winners in English football than FFP.

Also, what @Cast No Shadow is missing is that Leicester, City and Liverpool have all failed FFP in the last decade.

FFP clearly creates an environment where established clubs benefit. This is proved by the unprecedented domination of PSG, Bayern, Juve, Barca, Madrid. In lesser leagues, you also have Olympiakos, Benfica, Shakhtar Donetsk, Basel etc all-dominating as well. There's never been another period where European Leagues have all simultaneously become uncompetitive on this scale. All can be traced back to the implementation of FFP.

Of course, you'll always get shocks (like Monaco in Ligue 1), but there's a reason we're back to business as usual in France. There's no opportunity to sustain success unless you're already at the top.

The Premier League clearly bucks the trend. The reason being that each club receives huge sums from TV revenue and sponsorships in comparison to other leagues - the distribution of wealth in the Premier League is far, far fairer than say La Liga. So the disparity between clubs is smaller (but not small enough, hence the newly established 'big 6').

 

[domalino]

Once the Scousers box off the title, they’ll be the 5th Premier League winners in the FFP era - it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

Would Leicester have been able to win the league in 2016 had we been allowed to continue to invest heavily under Pellegrini, in the manner we had/have under Mancini and Guardiola? Probably not.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them. We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

One good thing about the current predicament is that it could be a catalyst for better scouting, better recruitment, incentivise player development and youth integration; more Kompanys, more Zabaletas, more SWPs, and fewer Stones and Cancelos.

Sorry I know I already replied but just none of this stands up at all.

it’s clearly made our league more competitive.

The 4 richest clubs in the country have won + Leicester who broke FFP. As many teams have won the league from 2011-2020 as did 2000-2010. When Liverpool win it'll be 1 more. Oh thanks for the increased competition!

United and Arsenal - clubs it was allegedly designed to protect, have finished outside the top 4 more often than not. Tottenham have generally replaced them there, and got to a Champions League final on a relatively modest financial outlay, while Leicester are once again set to finish in the CL places having won the title a few years back.

FFP did protect United and Arsenal for years until their mismanagement finally caught up with them. United have spent the 2nd most money since FFP came in. If Wolves, Leicester and others had been allowed to spend their money, it would have happened years ago.

Regarding monopolised leagues around Europe, what happened when Monaco briefly broke PSG’s stranglehold on the Ligue 1 title? We took Bernardo and Mendy from them.

Monaco lost Bernardo, Mbappe, Bakayoko, Lemar and Mendy because the Monaco owner wasn't allowed to use his own money to keep them. He couldn't invest money to pay them or buy players to make them stay in the belief it wasn't a one-off.

We signed Dzeko from Wolfsburg after they won the Bundesliga, then later De Bruyne, plus we got David Silva and Aguero from Valencia and Atletico, two threats to the Barca/Real Spanish duopoly - we are part of that problem.

Again this is an absurd argument. The problem is that these clubs are forced to sell because they can't compete. Wolfsburg have the richest owners in German football but they can't invest. That's the problem, not that we happened to buy 4 players over 10 years from the rung below us in European football.

 

[Nicholas van Whatsisface]

Also, what @Cast No Shadow is missing is that Leicester, City and Liverpool have all failed FFP in the last decade.

FFP clearly creates an environment where established clubs benefit. This is proved by the unprecedented domination of PSG, Bayern, Juve, Barca, Madrid. In lesser leagues, you also have Olympiakos, Benfica, Shakhtar Donetsk, Basel etc all-dominating as well. There's never been another period where European Leagues have all simultaneously become uncompetitive on this scale. All can be traced back to the implementation of FFP.

Of course, you'll always get shocks (like Monaco in Ligue 1), but there's a reason we're back to business as usual in France. There's no opportunity to sustain success unless you're already at the top.

The Premier League clearly bucks the trend. The reason being that each club receives huge sums from TV revenue and sponsorships in comparison to other leagues - the distribution of wealth in the Premier League is far, far fairer than say La Liga. So the disparity between clubs is smaller (but not small enough, hence the newly established 'big 6').

Absolutely - the spread of the TV deal in England means even the clubs who aren't realistically competing for the title can build very competitive squads from scouting across Europe.

This gives our League a far more competitive feel - but in reality it's only a combination of chronic mismanagement from a position of dominance at United and Arsenal coupled with huge investment at City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Leicester which has caused us to have as many different Champions as we have had over the last decade.

As you say, you could actually argue that a strategy of investing heavily, failing FFP, and riding the sanctions out whilst continuing to invest is demonstrably the route to success - as evidenced by City, Liverpool and Leicester.

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

I think beyond the obvious clubs, and the self-appointed elite, the Premier League is also infested with a number of selfish mid-table drifters, who are happy to preserve the status quo, and equally keen for FFP to prevent a challenge from ambitious clubs with potentially bigger resources in the lower divisions.

 

[spiny]

I think beyond the obvious clubs, and the self-appointed elite, the Premier League is also infested with a number of selfish mid-table drifters, who are happy to preserve the status quo, and equally keen for FFP to prevent a challenge from ambitious clubs with potentially bigger resources in the lower divisions.

Spot on. Not just the "Hateful Eight" who exposed themselves.

 

[bigstanhibbert]

And a newspaper lasted three days. Day one we read it. Day two we spread it on the table like a tablecloth, and day three we cut it up into squares and put it on a nail in the outside lavvie.

Day four we did the crossword, if we had a pencil

 

[patrickblue]

Not even going to comment on the rest of the post, but it is, and has been obvious for the last 20 odd years that Utd were going to become less successful when Ferguson went, basically because he became the club. The distance they have in fact fallen is down the decisions of the owners. The same is true of Arsenal to a lesser degree, neither side have been disadvantaged by FFP.

 

[spiny]

I find our owner a bit of a mystery really. I would expect a top Arab bloke like him to be very proud, and to have a high concept of his own honour. He is of course, almost unimaginably rich and very powerful in the wider world.

For such a bloke, he seems to be willing to swallow an awful lot of shit. Maybe he's playing a long game. Maybe it's tactical. Maybe his snapping-point will come. Or maybe he's doesn't deign to climb down into the gutter with these scum.

I do not believe that you understand how things work in the Arab world. It is not the USA or even here where the threat of litigation is commonly used.

They are equally if not more determined to prevail and not lose face but prefer to take a different approach than to rush to the courts where dirty washing will be aired and the outcome cannot be predicted. Better our owners retain their dignity and not get drawn into irrelevant tit for tat posturing. The aim is to win not score points.