Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

ok I will post some fucking benefits of leaving for 1000th time , just to shut you up

1 we don’t have to pay billions into the EU each year to pass throughout european countries and instead can use that money in the uk

2 we can remain an independent sovereign nation and take decisions about sanctions and trade independent of the EU , talks on trade deals with countries like japan and Australia are going well but of course as we are in a transition period we are still within the eu trade deals.

3 we can control immigration as a country and you will see that the points based system of immigration has passed through parliament

4 we don’t have to have further layers of politics Beuracracy and waste by not being involved in the eu elections and political system

5 it really pisses Nicola sturgeon off

6 we will have control of our fishing waters which will be a great boost for the uk fishing industry Who can catch it and sell it the Spanish and French etc for a tidy profit.

7 the fears of companies leaving on masse has not materialised or remotely true. Nissan investing Further in the north east at the expense of Barcelona , Goldman sachs opening its European HQ in London, Siemens announcing that it is investing further in its train factory in Europe . The european space centre picking Leicester as it’s space tech centre.

8 not being part of the growing integration and ultimately fall out coming from greater centralisation fiscally and militarily ( which we were told was not going to happen) .

9 seeing that the idea of not being able to go on holiday in Europe if we leave won’t be possible to be utter bollox

10 most importantly that we , like all the other countries around the world not in the eu discovering that it is possible to trade in and out of the eu all the time every day without coughing up billions to do so.

thanks.

1. The cost of not being in the EU will be greater. Trade barriers, especially NTB will suppress growth. Brexit has already cost the economy more than our contributions.

2. Britain is too small to have any impact on sanctions unless it is in conjunction with other nations and too small to be effective in trade negotiations. We have seen that already with less than half of current trade deals rolled over and nations like Japan wanting extra concessions.

3. The immigration bill is not points based.

4. There will be increased bureaucracy and red tape. Companies will be subject to more admin and bureaucracy because there will be new trade barriers and trade barriers require forms to be filled and boxes to be ticked. There will be red tape on our own internal trade where none previously existed. Additionally we will have to create our own regulatory framework (which will be expensive and complicated) which we currently subcontract out to the EU who do all this on behalf of all member states and is very cost effective. Also means UK companies will have to adhere to two sets of regulations to trade in Europe. UK regs and EU regs. More red tape and cost to business.

5. Emotional.

6. We already sell to Europe. Most of what we catch goes to Europe. We don’t eat what we catch. Personally I don’t care about fishing.

7. FDI is down in all sectors other than financial. Japan FDI also reduced. No decision has been made in Sunderland. It’s Renault’s decision. If a deal is struck that retains the current status quo then you won’t see much change. Fingers crossed that happens. European space center has nothing to to with the EU. It’s a ten country consortium of which we are one. All ten countries get a slice of the pie.

8. Correct.

9. That was always a nonsense. What you have lost is your right to freedom of movement around Europe. You can go on your hols.

10. We can trade. What we will lose is preferred access. It will cost the UK economy more. You cannot beat reality. Trade barriers increases trade friction and reduces trade. If you accept that Brexit is not about trade but isolating and decoupling the UK economy from Europe then fine, but you can’t argue it is about trade or even global Britain. It was always about protectionism and isolation.

 

[Metal Biker]

ok I will post some fucking benefits of leaving for 1000th time , just to shut you up

1 we don’t have to pay billions into the EU each year to pass throughout european countries and instead can use that money in the uk
Probably the main one for many of us who voted to leave. The idea we have to pay into a 'budget' just to trade with one another defeats the entire purpose of the trade bloc.
2 we can remain an independent sovereign nation and take decisions about sanctions and trade independent of the EU , talks on trade deals with countries like japan and Australia are going well but of course as we are in a transition period we are still within the eu trade deals. "bUt We CoUlD tRaDe WiTh OtHeR NaTiOnS wHiLe StIlL a MeMbEr...!" Anyone who cites that, has no idea about the 'protectionist' value of the bloc. Any deal we did, always had to have the EU in mind at the forefront of the discussions. Now, it doesn't need to be.

3 we can control immigration as a country and you will see that the points based system of immigration has passed through parliament
"bUt We CoUlD cOnTrOl ImMiGrAtIoN...!" Another favourite. We were told by the EU on the number of refugees/migrants we had to take during the Syrian Crisis. That should have set a few alarm bells ringing about the future of the EU and how it wanted to take a more dictatorial position over it's members. Migrants were never the core of the immigration argument.
4 we don’t have to have further layers of politics Beuracracy and waste by not being involved in the eu elections and political system

5 it really pisses Nicola sturgeon off
I really want all member nations to be given a vote in the next Scottish Referendum. I think it will surprise many Scots Nats to realise how many of us aren't actually bothered if Scotland leaves.
6 we will have control of our fishing waters which will be a great boost for the uk fishing industry Who can catch it and sell it the Spanish and French etc for a tidy profit.
The negotiations and the fact the EU is hinging a deal based on access to UK fishing waters, has exposed just how important the issue is to both us and them.
7 the fears of companies leaving on masse has not materialised or remotely true. Nissan investing Further in the north east at the expense of Barcelona , Goldman sachs opening its European HQ in London, Siemens announcing that it is investing further in its train factory in Europe . The european space centre picking Leicester as it’s space tech centre.
Business goes where the money and the market is. Without the UK, the Single Market is a pretty damp squib.
8 not being part of the growing integration and ultimately fall out coming from greater centralisation fiscally and militarily ( which we were told was not going to happen) .
Oh boy, is this a big one! Had it just stayed as a trade bloc, with a treaty in which certain members agreed to allow FoM/FoL, they'd be no talk of federalism. But that reality, once dismissed as "a dangerous fantasy", has now been acknowledged, even by some on here, to be the absolute end goal of this EU project. Some support that, others didn't, those that didn't totalled more.
9 seeing that the idea of not being able to go on holiday in Europe if we leave won’t be possible to be utter bollox
Or be able to work, or migrate, or settle, or open a business in Europe.
10 most importantly that we , like all the other countries around the world not in the eu discovering that it is possible to trade in and out of the eu all the time every day without coughing up billions to do so.
And my hope is that we have a closer relationship with our strongest and oldest allies, the United States, especially in the wake of the anti-American rhetoric coming out of the EU in recent years.
thanks.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

1. The cost of not being in the EU will be greater. Trade barriers, especially NTB will suppress growth. Brexit has already cost the economy more than our contributions.

2. Britain is too small to have any impact on sanctions unless it is in conjunction with other nations and too small to be effective in trade negotiations. We have seen that already with less than half of current trade deals rolled over and nations like Japan wanting extra concessions.

3. The immigration bill is not points based.

4. There will be increased bureaucracy and red tape. Companies will be subject to more admin and bureaucracy because there will be new trade barriers and trade barriers require forms to be filled and boxes to be ticked. There will be red tape on our own internal trade where none previously existed. Additionally we will have to create our own regulatory framework (which will be expensive and complicated) which we currently subcontract out to the EU who do all this on behalf of all member states and is very cost effective. Also means UK companies will have to adhere to two sets of regulations to trade in Europe. UK regs and EU regs. More red tape and cost to business.

5. Emotional.

6. We already sell to Europe. Most of what we catch goes to Europe. We don’t eat what we catch. Personally I don’t care about fishing.

7. FDI is down in all sectors other than financial. Japan FDI also reduced. No decision has been made in Sunderland. It’s Renault’s decision. If a deal is struck that retains the current status quo then you won’t see much change. Fingers crossed that happens. European space center has nothing to to with the EU. It’s a ten country consortium of which we are one. All ten countries get a slice of the pie.

8. Correct.

9. That was always a nonsense. What you have lost is your right to freedom of movement around Europe. You can go on your hols.

10. We can trade. What we will lose is preferred access. It will cost the UK economy more. You cannot beat reality. Trade barriers increases trade friction and reduces trade. If you accept that Brexit is not about trade but isolating and decoupling the UK economy from Europe then fine, but you can’t argue it is about trade or even global Britain. It was always about protectionism and isolation.

Well let’s see what the trade deal looks like shall we (which we cannot get of course, got to pay your subs to play) before seeing how it falls.

He wanted benefits I gave them him , disagree with them if you like, as can he .

 

[west didsblue]

ok I will post some fucking benefits of leaving for 1000th time , just to shut you up

1 we don’t have to pay billions into the EU each year to pass throughout european countries and instead can use that money in the uk

2 we can remain an independent sovereign nation and take decisions about sanctions and trade independent of the EU , talks on trade deals with countries like japan and Australia are going well but of course as we are in a transition period we are still within the eu trade deals.

3 we can control immigration as a country and you will see that the points based system of immigration has passed through parliament

4 we don’t have to have further layers of politics Beuracracy and waste by not being involved in the eu elections and political system

5 it really pisses Nicola sturgeon off

6 we will have control of our fishing waters which will be a great boost for the uk fishing industry Who can catch it and sell it the Spanish and French etc for a tidy profit.

7 the fears of companies leaving on masse has not materialised or remotely true. Nissan investing Further in the north east at the expense of Barcelona , Goldman sachs opening its European HQ in London, Siemens announcing that it is investing further in its train factory in Europe . The european space centre picking Leicester as it’s space tech centre.

8 not being part of the growing integration and ultimately fall out coming from greater centralisation fiscally and militarily ( which we were told was not going to happen) .

9 seeing that the idea of not being able to go on holiday in Europe if we leave won’t be possible to be utter bollox

10 most importantly that we , like all the other countries around the world not in the eu discovering that it is possible to trade in and out of the eu all the time every day without coughing up billions to do so.

thanks.

Thanks for that

1. We need a lot more than that to pay for the additional overhead of not sharing pan-European bodies and setting up our own. So I’d say that’s a drawback not a benefit.

2.Our EU trade deal with Japan will expire and it’s become clear that a new one will have a more limited scope. Australia deal? First I’ve heard, I thought it was a euphemism for No Deal.

3. We already could but chose not to in the areas that we are now imposing additional controls.

4. We are replacing that bureaucracy with costlier UK only bureaucracy.

5. If it makes you happy who can argue

6. I’m not pretending to be an expert on fish but from what I’ve read any benefits to the 0.1% of UK GDP that fishing provides is arguable.

7. Nissan in Barcelona makes trucks. Whatever happens at the car plant in Sunderland is unrelated to what they do in Barcelona. It’s far from clear what the future of the Sunderland plant is anyway. I’m glad the City is geared up to weather Brexit. We’ll need it. The European Space Centre has launched a branch of its Business Incubation Centre in Leicester. Its tech centre HQ is in the Netherlands.

8. All arguable and we had opt outs anyway.

9. No one seriously said that anyway.

10. Instead of coughing up billions we’ve added costs and time to every cross border transaction which will dwarf the EU contribution. We’ve also added bureaucracy to intra-UK trade between GB and NI.

 

[Saddleworth2]

1. The cost of not being in the EU will be greater. Trade barriers, especially NTB will suppress growth. Brexit has already cost the economy more than our contributions.

2. Britain is too small to have any impact on sanctions unless it is in conjunction with other nations and too small to be effective in trade negotiations. We have seen that already with less than half of current trade deals rolled over and nations like Japan wanting extra concessions.

3. The immigration bill is not points based.

4. There will be increased bureaucracy and red tape. Companies will be subject to more admin and bureaucracy because there will be new trade barriers and trade barriers require forms to be filled and boxes to be ticked. There will be red tape on our own internal trade where none previously existed. Additionally we will have to create our own regulatory framework (which will be expensive and complicated) which we currently subcontract out to the EU who do all this on behalf of all member states and is very cost effective. Also means UK companies will have to adhere to two sets of regulations to trade in Europe. UK regs and EU regs. More red tape and cost to business.

5. Emotional.

6. We already sell to Europe. Most of what we catch goes to Europe. We don’t eat what we catch. Personally I don’t care about fishing.

7. FDI is down in all sectors other than financial. Japan FDI also reduced. No decision has been made in Sunderland. It’s Renault’s decision. If a deal is struck that retains the current status quo then you won’t see much change. Fingers crossed that happens. European space center has nothing to to with the EU. It’s a ten country consortium of which we are one. All ten countries get a slice of the pie.

8. Correct.

9. That was always a nonsense. What you have lost is your right to freedom of movement around Europe. You can go on your hols.

10. We can trade. What we will lose is preferred access. It will cost the UK economy more. You cannot beat reality. Trade barriers increases trade friction and reduces trade. If you accept that Brexit is not about trade but isolating and decoupling the UK economy from Europe then fine, but you can’t argue it is about trade or even global Britain. It was always about protectionism and isolation.

At least Kevin had a list. We might not agree with most things on it but it’s an out of date argument really. No 8 is certainly a very credible reason to have wanted out.

I can certainly see a EU propped up financially more and more by Germany which to me is not a sustainable model. Fwiw, I think both the U.K. and the EU will face significant upheaval over the next couple of years. The EU, Covid and getting to a sustainable model for Italy, Spain, Greece. The U.K., Brexit and Covid. The entire continent is in for a bumpy ride.

 

[Blue Hefner]

So, we are happy with an ‘Australian’ points based system

It seems then we are quite happy with a load of foreigners coming in, destroying the indigenous population then claiming the country as their own?? But are actively against we aren’t happy with a few Polish builders

All very odd

 

[west didsblue]

At least Kevin had a list. We might not agree with most things on it but it’s an out of date argument really. No 8 is certainly a very credible reason to have wanted out.

I can certainly see a EU propped up financially more and more by Germany which to me is not a sustainable model. Fwiw, I think both the U.K. and the EU will face significant upheaval over the next couple of years. The EU, Covid and getting to a sustainable model for Italy, Spain, Greece. The U.K., Brexit and Covid. The entire continent is in for a bumpy ride.

Number 8 is only a significant factor for the Eurozone. There was no way we were being sucked into that as we were doing very well outside it and no government could have got it accepted.

On the other hand, if Brexit goes tits up and we try and rejoin we might not have a choice.

 

[Metal Biker]

So, we are happy with an ‘Australian’ points based system

It seems then we are quite happy with a load of foreigners coming in, destroying the indigenous population then claiming the country as their own?? But are actively against we aren’t happy with a few Polish builders

All very odd

Again, why? No-one on here has ever said anything remotely like this.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Number 8 is only a significant factor for the Eurozone. There was no way we were being sucked into that as we were doing very well outside it and no government could have got it accepted.

On the other hand, if Brexit goes tits up and we try and rejoin we might not have a choice.

Can you imagine the scenario where we stayed in and Eurozone combusts? Do you think that would have had major implications for us. I genuinely don’t know. I do know there are significant fiscal problems building up within EB and Target 2. I do agree that if we did try and rejoin, it would be on different terms. I await with interest the SNP proposals for rejoining.

 

[west didsblue]

Can you imagine the scenario where we stayed in and Eurozone combusts? Do you think that would have had major implications for us. I genuinely don’t know. I do know there are significant fiscal problems building up within EB and Target 2. I do agree that if we did try and rejoin, it would be on different terms. I await with interest the SNP proposals for rejoining.

If the EZ combusts we’ll get burned whether we’re in the EU or not. The important thing was not being in the EZ. The Greek crisis cost us nothing other than some loan guarantees to RoI and a relatively small loan that has been fully repaid. On the other hand it cost the Germans tens of billions.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

At least Kevin had a list. We might not agree with most things on it but it’s an out of date argument really. No 8 is certainly a very credible reason to have wanted out.

I can certainly see a EU propped up financially more and more by Germany which to me is not a sustainable model. Fwiw, I think both the U.K. and the EU will face significant upheaval over the next couple of years. The EU, Covid and getting to a sustainable model for Italy, Spain, Greece. The U.K., Brexit and Covid. The entire continent is in for a bumpy ride.

thanks and agree. The debate has been done to death.

what we have to hope for is a good fair trade agreement between the uk and the eu now and we move on.

going over the same old arguments doesn’t and won’t change a thing, the December election proved that.

 

[mcfc1632]

Because of you and people like you (leavers included) nobody posts an opinion or debates anymore. It all just descends into pathetic 'gotcha' posturing and back-slapping. You can't even bring yourself to consider an opposing view in case it shakes your own sense of being 'right' - again this is true of leavers too. There are a handful of people on here like yourself that can't possibly even consider that brexit may be a success within a reasonable timescale, and there are others that are equally blind to the potential hazards.

I fully accept my role as one of the - as described by @Psychedelic Casual - sad cunts - because I post on this thread regularly. Perhaps it is just myself as a sad **** on the Leave side and 3 or 4 obvious sad cunts on the Remain side.

I humbly suggest though that at least I am able to look in the mirror and accept @Psychedelic Casual 's opinion - I doubt the others have.

I also suggest that I am indeed capable of proper discussion and debate - but have gotten into the habit of indulging myself in dropping to the level that seems appropriate to deal with the SCs on the other side.

Having obeyed moderation instruction/request I have put the main boring Remainers on ignore - again I bet those Remainers will not have shown the same respect to that request - and I also bet that they have not stopped with the snide comments.

Anyway - re substance - and benefits, I repeat this post:

….It is telling that Remainers have studiously avoided commenting on the impact to the UK of the MFF if we had Remained - there is a good reason for that - well a couple I would suggest.....

No response - other than cheap / snide comments - to this query from any Remainer

Those looking for benefits should consider the 'benefit' of not being subject to the crippling costs to the UK that the MFF would have imposed. And also, the subsequent controls by the EU over the UK's capability to manage its own response to the pandemic - or even access the necessary funds we would have had to give up to the EU to fund the largesse of their choice.​

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

If the EZ combusts we’ll get burned whether we’re in the EU or not. The important thing was not being in the EZ. The Greek crisis cost us nothing other than some loan guarantees to RoI and a relatively small loan that has been fully repaid. On the other hand it cost the Germans tens of billions.

of course if the eu post brexit and post Covid has a political and economic fallout it will hit the uk hard as well , but we will not be compelled to bail out failing countries as we would be if we were still a member. However hopefully if it does start really having problems this country will do the right things by our neighbours if we are able, but be our decision.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

So, we are happy with an ‘Australian’ points based system

It seems then we are quite happy with a load of foreigners coming in, destroying the indigenous population then claiming the country as their own?? But are actively against we aren’t happy with a few Polish builders

All very odd

polish builders are very welcome but they will get in on the basis of their skill (and our own shortfall) , not just because he or she happens to be polish.

 

[west didsblue]

of course if the eu post brexit and post Covid has a political and economic fallout it will hit the uk hard as well , but we will not be compelled to bail out failing countries as we would be if we were still a member. However hopefully if it does start really having problems this country will do the right things by our neighbours if we are able, but be our decision.

As we’re not in the EZ we wouldn’t be compelled to bail anyone out as proven by the Greek crisis.

 

[BobKowalski]

Well let’s see what the trade deal looks like shall we (which we cannot get of course, got to pay your subs to play) before seeing how it falls.

He wanted benefits I gave them him , disagree with them if you like, as can he .

By trade deal I assume you mean with the EU but in reality you don't have to wait to see what it looks like. Any FTA deal will have less access and more NTB than being in the Single Market. Tariffs and nonsense about freeports are mostly talked about but trade today is dominated by supply chains and our strength is Services where diverging regulations are the main trade barriers. Divergence is a killer for Services and yet our main priority is freedom to ’diverge’ yet for what end? To trade less? Makes no sense. Common regulations, standard rule book, freedom to move people, these are key to Service exports and we want no part of it. As I said makes no sense and will only harm the country in the long run.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

As we’re not in the EZ we wouldn’t be compelled to bail anyone out as proven by the Greek crisis.

you mean like the rule that states when our economy performs better than in the eu our contributions To the central pot go up as a consequence......

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

By trade deal I assume you mean with the EU but in reality you don't have to wait to see what it looks like. Any FTA deal will have less access and more NTB than being in the Single Market. Tariffs and nonsense about freeports are mostly talked about but trade today is dominated by supply chains and our strength is Services where diverging regulations are the main trade barriers. Divergence is a killer for Services and yet our main priority is freedom to ’diverge’ yet for what end? To trade less? Makes no sense. Common regulations, standard rule book, freedom to move people, these are key to Service exports and we want no part of it. As I said makes no sense and will only harm the country in the long run.

Not this services rubbish again. We have had the debate. Each legal country in the eu has its own legal system and laws , ffs even Scotland and Northern Ireland laws are different to England and Wales .

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

you mean like the rule that states when our economy performs better than in the eu our contributions To the central pot go up as a consequence......

Haha - the 'success fine' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

 

[west didsblue]

you mean like the rule that states when our economy performs better than in the eu our contributions To the central pot go up as a consequence......

What’s that got to do with bailouts?