Another new Brexit thread

[bluethrunthru]

Dude, the EU just agreed a historic recovery package which for the first time allows the EU to utilise its own borrowing mechanisms as well as raising its own levies on plastic waste, carbon & the digital economy which potentially is a major shift in the fiscal role of the EU. This is historic stuff irrespective of how you view the EU.

And our fortunes are linked to the EU’s. Twenty-seven countries on our doorstep going tits up is going to hurt. Talk about living in a bubble.

The EU going tits up is fundamental in their self justification for Brexit - it will be bad for us ( they won't admit it ) but if its worse for the EU27 they can point at them and gloat

 

[meltonblue]

"No evidence of it..."

There's a lot of that going around. A bit like the "interference" from non-UK citizens of EU nations on twitter and facebook that showed support of Remain that influenced many people, yet nothing is being said about that strangely enough.

How do they stop what? People giving their opinions? People have free will; they are free to listen to others opinions and either support or reject them. We already know what the intentions are of those who back a campaign or reject it. Its to serve their own interests.

The simple fact remains that once the electorate is in the voting booth casting their vote, there is NO influence other than the conclusions of the voter at that given moment. They could have been 99% remain and then at the last second voted leave. It would still be valid.

The Russian Boogeyman claim is a pathetic and desperate attempt to suggest that because Russia wants to see the UK weakened, and remainers believe brexit will weaken the UK, that the two are connected and worked to influence gullible voters. It's the "lEaVe WaS a LiE!"/Cambridge Analytica bullshit all over again from 2017.

I’ve got no issue with the referendum and never have done. I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to argue though, is it that Russian interference in our domestic politics doesn’t matter if it wasn’t deemed as pivotal? Or that Russian interference around the brexit referendum didn’t happen or wasn’t swayed one way or the other?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Are you suggesting that Russia "hacked" the ballot boxes on the day of the referendum, had agents slip a few "fake" 'leave the EU' votes, and started surreptitiously burning remain ones to alter the total tally?

I think you need to read and try and understand the report fella. Literally NOBODY has suggested this except you.

The interference relates to the amplification of certain views, untruths and divisive information on line is the accusation.

 

[BobKowalski]

The EU going tits up is fundamental in their self justification for Brexit - it will be bad for us ( they won't admit it ) but if its worse for the EU27 they can point at them and gloat

Yeah, it’s the sheer stupidity of wanting to see an entire continent going up in flames without realising you live on the same fucking continent. It’s Economics for Dummies. Or Brexit as it is more commonly known.

 

[blueinsa]

I’ve got no issue with the referendum and never have done. I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to argue though, is it that Russian interference in our domestic politics doesn’t matter if it wasn’t deemed as pivotal? Or that Russian interference around the brexit referendum didn’t happen or wasn’t swayed one way or the other?

Its the refusal to accept that everyone interferes in everyone's domestic politics that is the issue.

As blind an eye as you will see being given to all of it from those who support remain whilst portraying Russia as the reason why they lost.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’ve got no issue with the referendum and never have done. I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to argue though, is it that Russian interference in our domestic politics doesn’t matter if it wasn’t deemed as pivotal? Or that Russian interference around the brexit referendum didn’t happen or wasn’t swayed one way or the other?

Of course there is Russian interference with our politics, but not on the grand scale some are trying to claim it is or connect it to brexit and the brexit result (which they ARE trying to do).

Its a bogus attempt to suggest that because there is some evidence that Russians attempted to influence the result (as they have tried to do with every western political event), is that some believe they actually DID determine the result, and therefore the result is bogus and should be overturned, and brexit halted, and we rejoin the EU and everyone dances in a circle and...

Getting it yet? You don't think that the UK and US have attempted to influence Russian politics over the years? Or anyone else? Does that invalidate their political outcomes, as is being suggested should happen over here?

 

[meltonblue]

Its the refusal to accept that everyone interferes in everyone's domestic politics that is the issue.

As blind an eye as you will see being given to all of it from those who support remain whilst portraying Russia as the reason why they lost.

I haven’t seen that being suggested. Of course everyone interferes. The idea that Obama giving a public statement is akin to what Russia does in trying to influence western domestic politics is fucking absurd though.

On this thread, all i really see is everyone interpreting everything solely through the lens of brexit and then allowing that to inform their view on the bigger picture to the point they seem incapable of applying any other context.

 

[meltonblue]

Of course there is Russian interference with our politics, but not on the grand scale some are trying to claim it is or connect it to brexit and the brexit result (which they ARE trying to do).

Its a bogus attempt to suggest that because there is some evidence that Russians attempted to influence the result (as they have tried to do with every western political event), is that some believe they actually DID determine the result, and therefore the result is bogus and should be overturned, and brexit halted, and we rejoin the EU and everyone dances in a circle and...

Getting it yet? You don't think that the UK and US have attempted to influence Russian politics over the years? Or anyone else? Does that invalidate their political outcomes, as is being suggested should happen over here?

Yep I do. I think you need to reread my posts as that’s not a position or a point I’ve ever argued. That’s why I asked what your point was as I didn’t really get why you were responding to me asking it.

 

[Metal Biker]

I haven’t seen that being suggested. Of course everyone interferes. The idea that Obama giving a public statement is akin to what Russia does in trying to influence western domestic politics is fucking absurd though.

On this thread, all i really see is everyone interpreting everything solely through the lens of brexit and then allowing that to inform their view on the bigger picture to the point they seem incapable of applying any other context.

Then you need to look beyond the social bubble and see what those who refuse to accept the result have been claiming.

The "Russia involvement" claim was initially used to suggest that Russian influences made people vote for leave based on "lies", and as a result the referendum should be re-run on that basis. That's the BS being discredited as some keep perpetuating the nonsense that this was ever a thing.

In regards to the wider question about obvious Russian involvement; they've always done it, and it's had zero influence or effect in their favour. They wanted Scotland to break away from the UK; didn't happen. I don't "fear" Russian involvement because it is so ineffective on the grander scale. I fully expect Russia to try and get involved in every aspect of British Politics to find weakenesses they could potentially exploit.

This discussion on this thread is about some of those who believe that evidence of Russian involvement in brexit = Russian involvement determining the overall outcome and whether the result was fraudulent, and you cannot state some haven't suggested precisely that over the years.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yep I do. I think you need to reread my posts as that’s not a position or a point I’ve ever argued. That’s why I asked what your point was as I didn’t really get why you were responding to me asking it.

Because you've been responding to us responding to those who have made claims in the past and are now calling them out on their bullshit, for example, IfIOnlyHadA... was one of the champions of such a claim.

 

[meltonblue]

Because you've been responding to us responding to those who have made claims in the past and are now calling them out on their bullshit, for example, IfIOnlyHadA... was one of the champions of such a claim.

On false comparables or a disingenuous interpretation of the report going the other way too, not on the underlying point.

 

[BobKowalski]

Its the refusal to accept that everyone interferes in everyone's domestic politics that is the issue.

As blind an eye as you will see being given to all of it from those who support remain whilst portraying Russia as the reason why they lost.

Incorrect. Personally I have no issue with Obama saying Brexit is a mistake or Putin saying it’s a good thing. These are opinions from powerful people designed to sway the electorate and people are free to welcome or condemn them. But they are in the open and the agenda is clear.

What we are objecting to is State actors funnelling undeclared money into campaigns or orchestrating social media bot campaigns from Washington or Moscow. The disinformation spread by Russia on behalf of anti-vaccine causes has already caused harm. Politicising mask wearing over science has caused harm. Promoting quack remedies for Covid 19 for profit and/or political purposes causes harm. All driven by social media and often by States whose sole purpose is to cause harm.

If we are to have foreign money involved in campaigns then it has to be declared and open for everyone to see. If we are to ban foreign money then be prepared to investigate allegations of it happening and not just turn a blind eye and pretend it didn’t happen.

The British Govt pretending it didn’t happen, harms us because no one is buying the Russians took the summer of 2016 off, especially when it came to an opportunity to damage the EU. It makes us look either incompetent or as shills for Russian interests.

 

[Metal Biker]

On false comparables or a disingenuous interpretation of the report going the other way too, not on the underlying point.

We're talking about the claims that were being made at the time surrounding the accusation of Russian involvement and said chickens coming home to roost.

You may not remember the discussions and claims that were made at the time by users on here which the report has not concluded in their favour, maybe that's the issue.

 

[blueinsa]

What we are objecting to is State actors funnelling undeclared money into campaigns or orchestrating social media bot campaigns from Washington or Moscow.

Where is the evidence they did this re brexit?

I've said it numerous times. I would ban all political campaigning from social media tomorrow and truly level the playing field that sees the Tories and Labour carving the political map up between themselves but it isn't going too happen because most bemoaning alleged interference here actually dont mind it so long as its going their way.

That is a real issue Bob unfortunately.

 

[meltonblue]

We're talking about the claims that were being made at the time surrounding the accusation of Russian involvement and said chickens coming home to roost.

You may not remember the discussions and claims that were made at the time by users on here which the report has not concluded, maybe that's the issue.

Ah, well, that’s the wrong report if that’s what people were expecting to see. That’s the issue I mean when people are too invested in one particular issue or event.

 

[Metal Biker]

Ah, well, that’s the wrong report if that’s what people were expecting to see. That’s the issue I mean when people are too invested in one particular issue or event.

Correct, it is.

Which is why those who made such scurrilous claims back then are being called out on it now, having been so vocal and certain in the past. They expected this report that they've waited 2 years for to "prove" and justify their protestations about Russian involvement in brexit, and since the report has brought up an entirely unrelated issue, where brexit is merely a mention, rather than the focus, the pathetic attempts to connect their original claims to this report is what we've been calling them out on.

That's what i've been doing, especially with "the regular crew" who back in 2018-19 were all over the suggestion that "Russians hacked/caused brexit". We told them it was nonsense back then, they've since tried to use this report as proof of what they previously claimed, we've told them that its still nonsense what they were trying to connect this report to their past claims. Now they're backtracking like fuck and it's hilarious; "we never claimed that! we never claimed that!"

 

[west didsblue]

Correct, it is.

Which is why those who made such spurrilous claims back then are being called out on it now, having been so vocal and certain in the past. They expected this report that they've waited 2 years for to "prove" and justify their protestations about Russian involvement in brexit, and since the report has brought up an entirely unrelated issue, where brexit is merely a mention, rather than the focus, the pathetic attempts to connect their original claims to this report is what we've been calling them out on.

That's what i've been doing, especially with "the regular crew" who back in 2018-19 were all over the suggestion that "Russians hacked/caused brexit". We told them it was nonsense back then, they've since tried to use this report as proof of what they previously claimed, we've told them that its still nonsense what they were trying to connect this report to their past claims. Now they're backtracking like fuck and it's hilarious; "we never claimed that! we never claimed that!"

First time I’ve seen a portmanteau of scurrilous and spurious? Well done.

 

[dave_blue12]

I mean the fuckers actually murdered a British citizen on UK soil and it’s like...nothing to see...move on...don’t investigate.

Fucking patriots, my arse.

The methods chosen for the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko and the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal were chosen for a reason. A nuclear weapon and a bio weapon deployed on UK soil is a massive threat. The seemingly casual tossing away of the canister of Novichok which led to the death of Dawn Sturgess was also a deliberate act to send a message.

Russia is a rogue state run by Putin and his ex KGB cronies. Rather than attempt to raise up their own country these people are intent on destroying the west. It is unforgivable that our politicians have taken no action to protect our country against this mob run state and even more unforgivable that many have taken the the Russian rouble over their duty to their country.

The apologists on here, whether Labour, Tory, Remainer or Leaver can go fuck themselves because by accepting this they are fucking the country we all live in.

 

[Metal Biker]

First time I’ve seen a portmanteau of scurrilous and spurious? Well done.

And this is why no-one debates you with you. :) It's called a spelling mistake/typing error. It happens.

What was it you said in the past, you know before you deleted it? People making, what was it, "prodigious comments"? I forget now.

 

[Metal Biker]

The methods chosen for the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko and the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal were chosen for a reason. A nuclear weapon and a bio weapon deployed on UK soil is a massive threat. The seemingly casual tossing away of the canister of Novichok which led to the death of Dawn Sturgess was also a deliberate act to send a message.

Russia is a rogue state run by Putin and his ex KGB cronies. Rather than attempt to raise up their own country these people are intent on destroying the west. It is unforgivable that our politicians have taken no action to protect our country against this mob run state and even more unforgivable that many have taken the the Russian rouble over their duty to their country.

The apologists on here, whether Labour, Tory, Remainer or Leaver can go fuck themselves because by accepting this they are fucking the country we all live in.

Nurse! We've got another one!