George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

Ban-jani said:
I think this is a good post. It’s so alien to us because a police officer with a gun is so rarely seen in England and had that same situation happened here, they’d have just dragged him out the car or tasered him.

I still think unless there is a gun spotted, firing seven shots into his back is well beyond a reasoned response.
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Neutralize the threat.

Until they can see his hands are empty, he remains a threat.

When I first did weapons training, after the first video simulation, the instructor asked me how many shots did you fire. I believe I answered 3 or 4.

We watched the replay. SEVEN.

He asked me when I thought I neutralized the threat, and I said the pat answer, when he no longer had the weapon in his hand. We watched again. He went down and was on the ground dead, but still had the weapon in his hand, just not pointed at me! I even shot him once while on the ground, which I thought was as he was going down, but still holding the weapon. It is an “adrenaline through the roof“ moment, and mine have only ever been role playing, and with dummy bullets and no actual fear of losing my life. You should try it some time, with a real gun, real noise, real situation, real life on the line consequences!

I would venture this is the first on duty shooting event for these officers. Most police officers spend their entire careers never shooting a gun in anger...over decades.

One hopes training kicks in, and these officers are obviously going to face the full onslaught of the media, family lawyers, their own police force’s internal investigation. But, most officers (and officers families) would say “better that than a police funeral.”
 
BobKowalski said:
Is the law now that if you are black you must, immediately and without question, obey all LEO instructions or risk being shot? Is the penalty for non compliance a hail of bullets in the back?
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Comply or run the risk of being shot is the reality regardless of colour
 
kaz7 said:
He was black in amongst women,must have been up to no good
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from what I have seen he was breaking up a fight between 2 women - at least 7 shots fired at close range on a guy getting into his car - a car which contained 3 children. If thats proportionate and those events were taken with consideration of any stray bullet or shrapnel from hitting a kid then I am from fucking Mars.

And were he a white guy I reckon those cops would have subdued him physically by wrestling him to the ground. But he wasn't, so they didn't and escalated to deadly force in one move. Wonder if everytime these cops play snakes and ladders they throw a 99 with their first throw of the dice?
 
Silva_Spell said:
Comply or run the risk of being shot is the reality regardless of colour
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You do realise that isn’t normal, right? What if you are ill, deaf, mentally incapacitated, drunk, in diabetic shock, etc.

You really think the penalty for these conditions and any others you care to mention is a hail of bullets?

That isn’t policing. That’s just executing people.
 
BobKowalski said:
Dude, they shot him seven times. In the back.
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Dude,


Is not the issue that LEO’s are trained to automatically suspect all black people no matter the circumstances?
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That’s ridiculous hyperbole and doesn’t deserve a response

Black youth with a toy gun? Shoot him. Black man with a recently, and legally purchased, firearm. Shoot him.
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As always, without context.

Is the law now that if you are black you must, immediately and without question, obey all LEO instructions or risk being shot? Is the penalty for non compliance a hail of bullets in the back?
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In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m not the officers attorney, and I’m glad you’re not a spokesperson for me.

The answer must lie in tackling the culture in which these reflex reactions are cultivated. Not just in the police but society as a whole. There is centuries old racial fear of the black man rising up. Keep them down for fear of them rising up. Keep them uneducated for fear of them rising up. Suppress the vote for fear of them rising up. Shoot them first and often for fear of them rising up.
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I thought you were trying to make a salient point for a second there and then you basically said white men are so racist they simply shoot them out of centuries of fear.

I‘m not American so I won’t pretend to know the answers and maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t help feeling you guys have to break the cycle before it breaks you.

My two cents for what it’s worth.
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Does the cycle break when people stop drawing weapons of the police or the other way around?

We are about to have a Presidential election. Listen to the rhetoric about guns, violence, law and order.

We may, as you intimate, be approaching an inflection point. Had a black armed militia “invaded” the Michigan State Capitol, we might be talking about the first Govt vs Armed Militia gun battle since Ruby Ridge or Waco.

The hard questions are:

1) With over 300,000,000 guns in Americans hands, can you put that toothpaste back in the tube?

2) Do you have the stomach and, more importantly, the votes for a defining challenge, or change, to 2A?

3) Who is the politician that dares to try that?

4) Sadly, I have to ask the serious question of whether they would survive such an attempt?

One of the major intractable problems is that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of gun laws across America. The problem is the jaw-abiding gun owner (me) follows them, while bad guys don’t give a damn about any laws, let alone gun laws!M

As I have said repeatedly on here, I am fairly liberal (esp by American standards), but I’m a staunch advocate of law and order. I think personal violence is the scourge of society and I don’t believe that humans are basically decent people, I believe that they have a decent albeit very thin veneer, which, when scratched, reveals an entirely different animal.

I believe that everybody WANTS to be decent, but socialization is different for everyone. Some children marinate in war and they have seen more AK-47s than kites, more death than triumphs, more loss than success. There are others who have lived gilded lives and never known anything but the bubble that wealth provides.

However, I believe that if you take them out if those surroundings, place them in a Lord of the Flies scenario, you would see who they really are, and I’m not sure how pretty it would be.

Is there fear of the angry black man in America? Absolutely! Heck, there is fear of the angry black woman in America. And, there are examples of each every day. However, that ignores a simple fact...everyone of the videos I showed you the person firing the gun was either white or unknown (even though it appears the last one was black).

Gun crime is not a black vs white issue, it’s a gun issue!
 
BobKowalski said:
You do realise that isn’t normal, right? What if you are ill, deaf, mentally incapacitated, drunk, in diabetic shock, etc.

You really think the penalty for these conditions and any others you care to mention is a hail of bullets?

That isn’t policing. That’s just executing people.
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Lots of things for cops to take into account but in an ordinary situation you run the risk (risk that elevates if you do stuff that makes a cop nervous) of being shot if you don't comply, it's not a race thing.
Plenty of way policing can be improved, better training to spot certain conditions etc., but that requires more funding, not less

And idiots like this guy aren't helping anyone (but themselves)
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I'd also argue regular people need training on knowing their rights in relation to police encounters and how to comply so you don't get shot. An innocent movement of your hand can result in your death, again, regardless of race. There needs to be better understand on both sides.
 
bluethrunthru said:
from what I have seen he was breaking up a fight between 2 women - at least 7 shots fired at close range on a guy getting into his car - a car which contained 3 children. If thats proportionate and those events were taken with consideration of any stray bullet or shrapnel from hitting a kid then I am from fucking Mars.
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Greetings.

And were he a white guy I reckon those cops would have subdued him physically by wrestling him to the ground. But he wasn't, so they didn't and escalated to deadly force in one move. Wonder if everytime these cops play snakes and ladders they throw a 99 with their first throw of the dice?
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“I reckon” ???

I reckon you’re wrong.

BTW, what did they do with that 6’5” black guy who fought getting into a squad car when he was already in handcuffs? Did they shoot him or wrestle him to the ground?
 
ChicagoBlue said:
2) Do you have the stomach and, more importantly, the votes for a defining challenge, or change, to 2A?
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Has there been any polling done on gun rights since the rioting etc.?

I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest some on the left who never owned a gun before bought one in the last few months ...but it's just anecdotal
 
Silva_Spell said:
I'd also argue regular people need training on knowing their rights in relation to police encounters and how to comply so you don't get shot. An innocent movement of your hand can result in your death, again, regardless of race.
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You don't have any rights if a police officer has a right to kill you for an innocent hand movement.
 
ChicagoBlue said:


Police officers watch videos like this in training.

Policing peaceful protestors is a different task than a traffic stop with non-compliance.

I am casting no premature judgement on the Kenosha shooting.

Would some of you feel differently if you discovered he was reaching inside his car for a gun? I don’t know if was or wasn’t. I don’t know if there was a gun in the car or not. I do know that if the officers had waited until they saw a gun, they could be dead now.

As I have said, when guns are ubiquitous, EVERY cop in EVERY situation has to assume the use of deadly force AGAINST HIM is a possibility.

There is admitted non-compliance and we ALL know enough to know that non-compliance and actions in complete contradiction of the compliance orders elevate the fear and danger of the situation.

Non-compliance coupled with bending down into a car, with the door partially open, backs to the officers do they have zero visibility of what the non-compliant person is doing is, in my opinion, the height of stupidity and daring the officers to use they already drawn weapons.

Ask yourself a question:

If you were confronted by two armed officers, guns drawn, barking orders at you, would YOU comply?

If not, why not?

Would you walk around a car away from them, where they can’t see your hands?

Would you then open your drivers side car door (the location where most people with weapons keep that weapon, within reach while driving, which is illegal unless legally permitted for concealed carry), with your back to officers, where they have zero vision of your hands?

You don’t even live in the US, but I would imagine most everyone in the UK would comply immediately, would not ignore lawful compliance orders from armed officers, and would definitely not ignore them to the point of just walking around the car to get to the drivers side door to reach in.

Like I said, I’ll withhold judgment until I know more, but I simply ask what would YOU have done? What do you think the “normal” person would have done? Why do YOU think the person was so completely non-compliant? Does non-compliance in the face of armed officers suggest fear or did he act quite nonchalantly? We’re there other people in the immediate vicinity, any one of whom could have been armed, escalate the situation?

Again, no judgement, just asking the questions that reasonable people ask about these incidents.





These were essentially “nothing” incidents until, in a split second, they became potentially deadly encounters...for police officers.

If YOU were a police officer, would YOU wait until fired upon to return fire? In those last two videos, did those guys look like they were afraid of the police? Had any intention to comply? Did they look like they ANY FEAR, OR CONCERN FOR HUMAN LIFE WHATSOEVER, when they immediately opened fire, and even got out of their own cars to run to the police cars to have a gun battle in the street?

Again, no judgement if you or your answers, just asking questions of (I assume) normal, every day, run of the mill, law abiding citizens from a country where gun crime is almost non-existent.
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Unfortunately, at this point in time we don't have the whole incident to look at until the cops release their body cams on the Kenosha shooting.

But, the man doesn't look like he has a weapon in his hands, he doesn't look like he's running, he doesn't look particularly aggressive and, at the point of the vid we already see guns drawn.

So, as Brits, we would wonder why the incident wouldn't be investigated on the spot where all parties talk and get to the bottom of the situation before anything escalates. That's pretty much deescalation, right there. No judgements are cast, just questions asked.

We would have to get the full picture before making a decision on why there's 'non-compliance'. It could be that the man was fed up of the whole thing (who know how many times this has happened) and just wanted to get his boys home, not expecting to be shot in the back, multiple times.

i hope he sues and wins (unlikely!).
 
Silva_Spell said:
Demagoguery. It's not a case of having the right to be killed for an innocent hand movement
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Sure it is. I move my hand innocently. The cop makes a mistake and thinks I'm reaching for a weapon and I'm dead. The cop is alive, I'm dead. Who has rights in the aftermath? Did he violate mine? No? But do I have any left? Nope, I'm dead.
 
Silva_Spell said:
More demagoguery.
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Police officers make mistakes. It's their job not to. They are the ones with the power of the law. Their job is to protect the citizenry. A police officer who shoots someone for an innocent hand movement has made a mistake and not done his/her job correctly.

You have a dollar to spend on training -- either on the policeman to prevent such things from happening, or on the "citizenry" to ensure they don't twitch involuntarily. Which do you spend it on?
 
BobKowalski said:
You do realise that isn’t normal, right? What if you are ill, deaf, mentally incapacitated, drunk, in diabetic shock, etc.

You really think the penalty for these conditions and any others you care to mention is a hail of bullets?

That isn’t policing. That’s just executing people.
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Mate, I have seen police shoot mentally ill people from distance, sat on the floor doing nothing!

It's a joke!
 
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