George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

I think diverting costs away from police makes much more sense in the US than UK but playing devils advocate, isn’t polling in poor black communities against defunding the police? Ie they want a strong police force in their areas?
 
Bigga said:
Answer me this; why is it when White men can march as a group or individuals it's called a 'right', but when Black people do it, it called 'problems'?

It really is fooking annoying why one is 'accepted/ expected' and one not.
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I agree, white people shouldn't be marching with guns either and with the link I posted it's definitely worth saying that there were also armed counter-protesters. I suppose the point is why does anyone need to march with assault rifles? What point is this trying to prove and how does it lend to any argument on defunding or disarming the police?

It's no different to celebrity climate protesters protesting about climate change when they flew to the protest in BA first class via their diesel powered super-yacht.

SWP's back said:
And? Do you even know what it means?

Do you think the US police should be purchasing hundreds of millions in surplus military grade vehicles and weaponry?

Do you not think that money could be better spent?
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Less than 20% of Americans support the defund movement and crime generally across the US has been slowly falling whilst police budgets are higher than ever.

What would you spend the money on instead at the expense of potentially increasing crime? If you can guarantee no crime increase then great do it but how can you?

When it's your house being robbed will you be glad that more spending has gone into community centres? It soon changes then.
 
inbetween said:
Less than 20% of Americans support the defund movement and crime generally across the US has been slowly falling whilst police budgets are higher than ever.

What would you spend the money on instead at the expense of potentially increasing crime? If you can guarantee no crime increase then great do it but how can you?

When it's your house being robbed will you be glad that more spending has gone into community centres? It soon changes then.
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Mental health services, drug rehabilitation, better social services, better housing, better education, homelessness.

A fleet of Armoured vehicles not so much.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Some areas of the states have half of their city budgets spent on the police, so isn’t ‘defunding the police‘ a means spending huge amounts of cash in a different way?
For example, should the system ensure that there are good quality services in the community so that somebody in mental health crisis gets the help they need, or an addict can get treatment, rather than getting arrested by the police and taken to a cell?

These are really important questions to ask when you think that, In the industrialised world, America has by far the biggest prison population, it has by far the most heavily resourced police forces, and has by far the largest crime rates and the lowest levels of public safety.
By any definition, whatever it’s got now, it’s not working....
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Exactly.
 
inbetween said:
What would you spend the money on instead at the expense of potentially increasing crime?
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How much would crime increase by if county sheriffs didn’t purchase millions of dollars worth of surplus military grade vehicles and equipment?
 
BobKowalski said:
Mental health services, drug rehabilitation, better social services, better housing, better education, homelessness.

A fleet of Armoured vehicles not so much.
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Indeed fine, but ask yourself first why they need armoured vehicles? Would you like to goto one of the 100+ shootings per day in a Ford Fiesta?

It must be remembered that as a direct result of the aftermath of the protests for George Floyds death, 19 people or so were shot and killed. In some of these incidents the police responded and were attacked by protesters for doing their job, the kind of thing I guess you agree with too?

I'm all for this idealist world stuff but like I said everyone changes their tune when it is their house being robbed, or their sons being killed, or they are the police officer forced to run into a gunfight with a water pistol.

I'm all for all of the things you have described but I'm afraid the darkest sides of society can't be resolved through disabling the only thing that protects us from them.
 
SWP's back said:
How much would crime increase by if county sheriffs didn’t purchase millions of dollars worth of surplus military grade vehicles and equipment?
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Do you have any evidence that this is the case? Every single police response video I've seen doesn't show the police turning up in tanks or with assault rifles. Local police in the US often don't even respond to suspected shootings in body armour. Now when federal agencies get involved it becomes a different matter but that's rare.

They do turn up to protests tooled up but that is for intimidation. The Met use the exact same tactic when they expect violence and so turn up in riot gear here in the UK. Just be glad you aren't in Europe or Asia where they bring the water cannons, tear gas and rubber bullets.
 
inbetween said:
I'm all for this idealist world stuff but like I said everyone changes their tune when it is their house being robbed, or their sons being killed, or they are the police officer forced to run into a gunfight with a water pistol.
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None of those require military vehicles.
 
I have to sigh at the way several posters take the statement 'defund the police' so literally to back up their opinions.

It does not mean get rid of police altogether. It does not mean less police.

It simply means re-direct some of the massive budget to social services that, in the long run, would benefit everyone, police included.

Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know this, yet seemingly intelligent posters will dig up some loon who wants to get rid of police altogether in order to back up their opinions
 
inbetween said:
Indeed fine, but ask yourself first why they need armoured vehicles? Would you like to goto one of the 100+ shootings per day in a Ford Fiesta?

It must be remembered that as a direct result of the aftermath of the protests for George Floyds death, 19 people or so were shot and killed. In some of these incidents the police responded and were attacked by protesters for doing their job, the kind of thing I guess you agree with too?

I'm all for this idealist world stuff but like I said everyone changes their tune when it is their house being robbed, or their sons being killed, or they are the police officer forced to run into a gunfight with a water pistol.

I'm all for all of the things you have described but I'm afraid the darkest sides of society can't be resolved through disabling the only thing that protects us from them.
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Rubbish
 
SWP's back said:
Yes. There’s fucking loads.

wheels.blogs.nytimes.com

Police Are Getting the Military's Leftover Armored Trucks

The A.C.L.U. suggests that police militarization may be a problem, but to police departments like the one at Ohio State University, a free MRAP is too good of an offer to refuse.
wheels.blogs.nytimes.com
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Is this evidence though?

If you research the 1033 program, transfers are free and the majority of equipment transferred is protective clothing, guns and ammunition where police run short, not armoured vehicles.

Get rid of the armoured vehicles and maybe you've just saved the equivalent of a fiver down the sofa.

There are some reasons to have them mind, particularly as otherwise they'd go in the bin.

en.wikipedia.org

Mine-resistant ambush protected vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
BobKowalski said:
You state two things that you hold to be true. (1) America also has a massive crime problem and (2) A big police presence has always existed there.

Does not the existence of truth (1) mean that truth (2) is clearly not the whole answer and that a different approach might be the solution?
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I am not suggesting that you're wrong, and it would be interesting discussing it,
probably not in a BLM thread though.
 
inbetween said:
Indeed fine, but ask yourself first why they need armoured vehicles? Would you like to goto one of the 100+ shootings per day in a Ford Fiesta?
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Yesterday the defence was " many an officer does a 30 year career on the force and never draws his weapon in anger "

Today its "they go to 100+ shootings per day - should they go in a Fiesta"

Weird because I am pretty sure 99% of the footage I have seen of fatal shootings I have seen have involved Police getting out of the standard Police cruiser. Our armed Police seem to do well enough in a BMW X5 or a Peugeot van.
 
inbetween said:
Do you have any evidence that this is the case? Every single police response video I've seen doesn't show the police turning up in tanks or with assault rifles. Local police in the US often don't even respond to suspected shootings in body armour. Now when federal agencies get involved it becomes a different matter but that's rare.

They do turn up to protests tooled up but that is for intimidation. The Met use the exact same tactic when they expect violence and so turn up in riot gear here in the UK. Just be glad you aren't in Europe or Asia where they bring the water cannons, tear gas and rubber bullets.
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Most PD SWAT teams are better armed and equipped than your average British Infantry soldier.
 
A black man repeatedly shot in the back by police in Wisconsin has been left paralysed from the waist down, his father has said,His son now has "eight holes" in his body and is paralysed from the waist down, he said, though doctors do not know if the paralysis will be permanent.

news.sky.com

Jacob Blake: Black man paralysed from waist down after being repeatedly shot in back by police, father says

"What justified all those shots? What justified doing that in front of my grandsons?," the 29-year-old's parent asks.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

I thought he would be paralysed,hewould have had been exceptional lucky not to have been given where he was shot and how many
 
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