George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

inbetween said:
Indeed fine, but ask yourself first why they need armoured vehicles? Would you like to goto one of the 100+ shootings per day in a Ford Fiesta?

It must be remembered that as a direct result of the aftermath of the protests for George Floyds death, 19 people or so were shot and killed. In some of these incidents the police responded and were attacked by protesters for doing their job, the kind of thing I guess you agree with too?

I'm all for this idealist world stuff but like I said everyone changes their tune when it is their house being robbed, or their sons being killed, or they are the police officer forced to run into a gunfight with a water pistol.

I'm all for all of the things you have described but I'm afraid the darkest sides of society can't be resolved through disabling the only thing that protects us from them.
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So, let me ask you this; how many of those 19 people, do you think, would still be alive if there were no protests as Mr Floyd would still be breathing... If Chauvin had shown a little more Humanity...?

Nothing 'idealist' about that.
 
Silva_Spell said:
To give him as much time as possible to comply

Presumably, to stop him getting a gun or driving away (and putting innocent people - including his kids, if they were aware of them- in danger during a potential high speed chase). If he had been waving a knife about as he was getting in the car they probably would have shot him from a distance. If he had a knife at all the officer obviously put his life in some danger to stop either of the 2 prior scenarios. I don't think a previous fight makes any difference as to whether he gets grabbed at that point

Yes, It's a shame there were no bodycams, all police should have them - as much for their own defence as the safety of citizens - hopefully the dashcam sheds further light
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I'd like to you think carefully about what you've just said and apply logic of when an officer would draw a gun and shoot person of threat.

Just going off what you've just said, none it makes any sense.
 
Bigga said:
I'd like to you think carefully about what you've just said and apply logic of when an officer would draw a gun and shoot person of threat.

Just going off what you've just said, none it makes any sense.
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Give us a hint
 
Silva_Spell said:
Give us a hint
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Let me point it this way; when do YOU think would be the logical point to draw and shoot a man with a weapon? Let's think about when the weapon was seen. Let's think about why they chose that particular time to discharge the weapon and not earlier. If seeing the weapon before was not 'threat' enough to discharge earlier, why discharge when the victim had his back to the officers?

Just applying logic to any of that scenario, questions the police training, especially in light of the police shooting an ACTUAL threat a few pages ago.

There are not different sets of logic to be applied to a man outnumbered with a weapon, never mind an unseen weapon.
 
Tell you what - here's an idea - all US cops to wear body cams. Any body cam not turned on invalidates the testimony of the officer who didn't turn it on.
 
Bigga said:
Let me point it this way; when do YOU think would be the logical point to draw and shoot a man with a weapon? Let's think about when the weapon was seen. Let's think about why they chose that particular time to discharge the weapon and not earlier. If seeing the weapon before was not 'threat' enough to discharge earlier, why discharge when the victim had his back to the officers?

Just applying logic to any of that scenario, questions the police training, especially in light of the police shooting an ACTUAL threat a few pages ago.

There are not different sets of logic to be applied to a man outnumbered with a weapon, never mind an unseen weapon.
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"when do YOU think would be the logical point to draw and shoot a man with a weapon?"
By weapon I assume we're talking a melee weapon. When the wielder is moving in a way that indicates a threat (and after commands to drop the weapon, assuming there was a chance to issue commands) to police or public

"If seeing the weapon before was not 'threat' enough to discharge earlier, why discharge when the victim had his back to the officers?"
I gave 2 reasons for that. Neither involved him being shot for the knife. The 'weapons' would have been a potential gun in the vehicle or the vehicle itself (inadvertently)
We don't know exactly the circumstances surrounding the alleged knife, was it in his hand at some point?, was it on his belt? pocket? how many of the cops saw it? Was it actually a phone? etc.

I don't see any logical issue with the above compared to the Pellerin (if I recall his name correctly) shooting, if that's the one you're referring to.

edit: typo
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
You are given the incredible responsibility of flying us and not killing us, Captain, and we don’t cut you any slack if you fuck up, and neither does the FAA or the airline you work for. You make split second decisions based on ever changing conditions. The police do too. Not very often, but you’re paid for those moments when situations are abnormal. You’re trained for them, relentlessly I gather. So are the police.

I agree COMPLETELY that casting aspersions about the police as a whole is wildly uncalled for, and unfair, just as casting aspersions about pilots generally based on those dipshits at Pinnacle who tried to reach the 40k club in a CRJ is unfair.

But police officers must be held to a higher standard of performance just as you must be. No mistakes, no excuses. Innocent people’s lives are at stake. Fortunately, as with pilots, the vast majority are, I think, very good at their jobs. At least the ones I know are.
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You give me too much credit.
Comparing a 727/737/747/757/767/319/320 pilot to a cop cruising around police car in the dead of night in a big city in America is an unfair comparison. He is in far more jeopardy than me!

It’s me against the machine, and I’m trained to deal with each and every known potential anomaly. Change it to a person and now I have no idea what it is going to do, or why!

My job is easier 99.999% of the time, but when it goes so wrong that I can’t handle it, it’s not only 1 person who dies, it’s 189! That’ll make the news!
 
Bigga said:
I'm sorry I'm so late to this post!

Can I just ask you, if Blake had a knife, why wait until he was in his his open car door to shoot him??

Secondly, why would the police pull him back by his vest if

A) He'd been 'fighting with the police' and

B) He had a weapon...?

It seems pretty contradictory to not pull your guns on the man after he 'fought', never mind 'having a weapon'.

Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see him waving a knife around, he didn't seem particularly much in a hurry to get to his car. I'm trying to work out the logic of 'having a knife' and not waving it at police as he gets into the car...

I dunno, maybe if the cops had body cams and not just a witness' mobile phone to work off...
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I am not sure I’m able to answer questions you have for yourself. Nor am I the designated spokesperson for Mr Blake’s actions.

I don’t know if Kenosha cops have Axion Body Cams. If they do, we may get more info. If they don’t, maybe it’s a cost issue. I’m not a spokesperson for Kenosha PD, either.

Rather, I’m just a guy who wore a HK USP 40 LEM to work for a decade, went through firearms training with DHS (mainly ex-FBI agents), and understand the legal and personal ramifications of the split second “shoot-don’t shoot” decision. From that experience, which may be unique on this Forum, I’m trying to help people understand there is ALWAYS more to the story than the video, but we are already off and running on the video!

I like to watch Brian Williams on TV news, but I was saddened to see him fall for the overtly politically lazy narrative being tendered. But, I’ve seen aviation stories that are treated in such a ridiculous manner as to understand that ALL news is biased by the person or organization delivering it to you.

None of that presupposes there are not things that could be done better, to include training. However, who is going to train the ever more violent, ever more casual perpetrators of what were once considered despicable crimes committed by mobsters and gangsters, to stop ignoring the authority police are supposed to bring to bear on the streets of the country?

None of that presupposes there are not things that could be done better, to include training. However, who is going to train the ever more violent, ever more casual perpetrators of what were once considered despicable crimes committed by mobsters and gangsters, to stop ignoring the authority police are supposed to bring to bear on the streets of the country?

That said, I wouldn’t be a cop in a city in the USA in 2020 for all the tea in China!
 
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ChicagoBlue said:
You give me too much credit.
Comparing a 727/737/747/757/767/319/320 pilot to a cop cruising around police car in the dead of night in a big city in America is an unfair comparison. He is in far more jeopardy than me!

It’s me against the machine, and I’m trained to deal with each and every known potential anomaly. Change it to a person and now I have no idea what it is going to do, or why!

My job is easier 99.999% of the time, but when it goes so wrong that I can’t handle it, it’s not only 1 person who dies, it’s 189! That’ll make the news!
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Grant you that, Cap'n. Pretty fair rejoinder. Fly safe mate.
 


I figured I'd wait to get a clearer picture before commenting. As it turns out, there is now a 2nd video.

One that shows an earlier portion of the interaction. Apparently the cops had wrestled the man down (you know, what many claimed they should have done), he struggled with them and got loose, you know, as most resisting arrest would. And then they drew their guns as they chased him around the car where he opens the door and reaches in....Then an officer shoots...Yes, multiple times.


There is nothing the naysayers often like suggesting that wasn't attempted here.

2 police officers with guns on their hips struggling to subdue a suspect who was determined to NOT be detained..

@Bigga over to you. What should they have done there?

According to reports, they attempted to wrestle him to the ground and had tased him already.

So officers with gun on their hips try to arrest, wrestle to the ground ( but no knee as that's illegal), and then tased the suspect. He gets loose. Walks purposely or Maybe in a daze around to his car front door with police officers with guns drawn behind ordering him to stop.


I ask everyone on this thread What Should They Have Done? And at what point should they have done it?
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
Grant you that, Cap'n. Pretty fair rejoinder. Fly safe mate.
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I hope I have the pleasure of flying you one day. Haven’t lost one yet! HAHA!

However, when I was a pilot instructor, I had more than a few who tried hard to kill us both! One spun the aircraft over the beach in Daytona and I only managed to get us out of it 150m from the sand! Another one shut the engine down by accident coming in to land and we almost hit the Mall north of the runway before I got it restarted! And then there’s always the students who think stalling the aircraft on short final (power out too quickly as they raise the nose too high) is how you land!!
8-{}

But I’d still take all that than be a big city cop!!!
 
ChicagoBlue said:
I hope I have the pleasure of flying you one day. Haven’t lost one yet! HAHA!

However, when I was a pilot instructor, I had more than a few who tried hard to kill us both! One spun the aircraft over the beach in Daytona and I only managed to get us out of it 150m from the sand! Another one shut the engine down by accident coming in to land and we almost hit the Mall north of the runway before I got it restarted! And then there’s always the students who think stalling the aircraft on short final (power out too quickly as they raise the nose too high) is how you land!!
8-{}

But I’d still take all that than be a big city cop!!!
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My son has a couple dozen hours in an Archer now. He loves it!
 
News breaking of at least one shot dead in the Wisconsin protests last night.
 
Bigga said:
So, let me ask you this; how many of those 19 people, do you think, would still be alive if there were no protests as Mr Floyd would still be breathing... If Chauvin had shown a little more Humanity...?

Nothing 'idealist' about that.
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Yes yes, no-one can condone police violence. The killing of Floyd was disgraceful and the officers involved should and hopefully will face justice for what they did. That should happen however with any instance of murder, be it the police or the guy on the street, no single murder is justifiable or excusable.

And this is the problem in the US, violence is normalised because of stupid laws allowing the proliferation of weapons for fun by all sides. That's why you get protesters and counter-protesters turning up with assault rifles followed by the police in armoured trucks but in that instance how can we blame the police for turning up in armoured trucks?

All people seem to care about is the police turning up in gear when actually why does anyone need to turn up to a protest with a weapon, but indeed why does the protest need to exist at all? It's all just a vicious circle and for me the major aggravating factor has always been guns and the violent culture surrounding them.

Take the guns away and the police don't need military gear as they don't in 99% of situations here in the UK. Yes racism remains a real problem as it is in all forms of society but at least without guns the people over there might stop dying on a daily basis.

This again for me is why you can't defund the police unless it's done at such a low level that it won't make any difference. There is an argument to reduce their efforts to gather military gear fair enough, but the police need to be armed and protected or else in the US there is a good chance on a daily basis that they may go out and never come home again.

Still though yes it's a lose-lose situation but that's not because the police are violent, it's because criminals are violent and often armed with guns and willing to fire them if necessary.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
I am not sure I’m able to answer questions you have for yourself. Nor am I the designated spokesperson for Mr Blake’s actions.

I don’t know if Kenosha cops have Axion Body Cams. If they do, we may get more info. If they don’t, maybe it’s a cost issue. I’m not a spokesperson for Kenosha PD, either.

Rather, I’m just a guy who wore a HK USP 40 LEM to work for a decade, went through firearms training with DHS (mainly ex-FBI agents), and understand the legal and personal ramifications of the split second “shoot-don’t shoot” decision. From that experience, which may be unique on this Forum, I’m trying to help people understand there is ALWAYS more to the story than the video, but we are already off and running on the video!

I like to watch Brian Williams on TV news, but I was saddened to see him fall for the overtly politically lazy narrative being tendered. But, I’ve seen aviation stories that are treated in such a ridiculous manner as to understand that ALL news is biased by the person or organization delivering it to you.

None of that presupposes there are not things that could be done better, to include training. However, who is going to train the ever more violent, ever more casual perpetrators of what were once considered despicable crimes committed by mobsters and gangsters, to stop ignoring the authority police are supposed to bring to bear on the streets of the country?

None of that presupposes there are not things that could be done better, to include training. However, who is going to train the ever more violent, ever more casual perpetrators of what were once considered despicable crimes committed by mobsters and gangsters, to stop ignoring the authority police are supposed to bring to bear on the streets of the country?

That said, I wouldn’t be a cop in a city in the USA in 2020 for all the tea in China!
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... Well... That was a response... Soooo...


Let's apply some of your training to this situation. Just citing your "split second “shoot-don’t shoot” " decision making.

At what point with your training, understanding the victim 'fought' the police, do you consider the 'split second' decision to draw your weapon? We've seen plenty of people killed by gun and by hand at the 'fighting' stage.

So, when does "split second thinking" become not this when the perp/ victim has walked back to his vehicle, especially when the 'knife' prose is not seen on video?

Surely the Police Chief would show the weapon at the Press Conference, even by photograph?

I'm yet to see anything supporting the 'knife' claim.

Maybe you could enlighten me...?

And how many shots does it take to "neutralise the threat"? Is it until the person has stopped moving or breathing? And, if the person is still breathing, how do you know the "threat is neutralised" enough?

I find the scared US cop a peculiar entity and the whole gun culture (IN THE US) bizarre.
 
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