Donald Trump

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I don’t believe you.
You clearly sympathise with the racist murdering shit, and are doing your best to make excuses for him, in the same way as you make excuses for the orange turd inflaming every situation he can.
Your belief is not required.
But here are the facts. There is no evidence he is a racist. And murder is a legal claim that will need proving in Court. I suppose being a 'shit' is a personal opinion.

So the bias here seems to be on your part. But I'm sure you can't see it.
 
Your belief is not required.
But here are the facts. There is no evidence he is a racist. And murder is a legal claim that will need proving in Court. I suppose being a 'shit' is a personal opinion.

So the bias here seems to be on your part. But I'm sure you can't see it.
I am happy to admit my post is an opinion. Rittenhouse will get his day in court to argue that he’s not a murderer, and his enthusiastic support of Trump’s racism isn’t proof that he’s a racist.
But this is a football forum not a court of law and it’s my opinion he’s a racist murderer and you’re an apologist for a racist murderer and a racist, criminal president.
 
Agree that is his plan however. Mail in voting is likely to be closer aligned to the two parties than people think. The GOP relies on older voters - they will want to mail in the votes. This plan also only works if he wins the counts of in person voting, he may not.

Its also pretty irrelevant what he says after the election as it is all done state by state, each state has to count the votes and agree they have a winner. If they fail to do that then it ends up in court and the court will move fast, it would go to the supreme court before the key date of 14th December. The election winner is confirmed on that date and Congress count the votes in from the collage. If a State fails to send in a result then congress has license to push on. So it is highly possible that we end up with Congress declaring Biden the winner in December with Trump still contesting the result. But its too late then for him, it would all be over in the new year.
Yes, we have talked about this before and I have continually said that those that put their faith in the rule of law (i.e. what you have described and what I have always agreed is what *should* happen) are grossly underestimating the level of subversion the Trump camp and the Republicans are willing to go.

I do not contest that mail-in voting has been the domain of older voters in past elections. But most advance analysis of likely mail-in and provisional ballot voters for this election have it going decidedly toward Biden, and there have been many write-ups from election observers and analysts, including the one I was responding to, that predict an initial vote balance favouring Trump around Election Day, with a drastic shift as mail-in and provisional ballots are counted later. I am only going on the balance of analysis thus far, not my own opinion.

It’s also important to remember that the Trump camp have been taking disruptive and destructive action to ensure mail-in ballots are delayed in arriving in state collection and processing facilities, even if mailed early. Hopefully many people will be aware of that and drop off their ballots in person at designated drop off stations ahead of Election Day, but many will not. And some states do not allow a substantial advance period for drop off and/or are releasing their mail-in ballots much later than others (in some cases there seems to be intentional unusual delays in Republican states). That’s not even factoring in possible issues with vote counting in districts that have close ties to the Trump camp.

And the legal challenges I was referring to are actually Republican lead challenges at the state level, which we saw during the Bush-Gore debacle, but by all reports this cycle are meant to be ready to contest multiple state vote tallies (and individual county counts) nearly as soon as the election is over. That’s in addition to the “election monitoring” that Republicans have already announced they will be doing, with many states allowing nearly immediate ballot challenges at polling stations. And I do not think these challenges are going to move through the courts quite as fast as you think, especially given the conditions of some of the states court systems right now (both due to underlying state authorities but also because of the pandemic).

I’ve also said many times that there is no reason to believe that, in the event election certification gets to Congress, that the composition that exists prior to the January 3 transition would certify Biden as the winner. And there are some constitutional scholars that say there are actual issues with that path (which has never occurred before), anyway.

I also do not agree that what he says/does after the election is irrelevant. It absolutely is relevant, not only for the reasons I have laid out above, but because he is and will continue to deputise his followers to action to stop his ouster — laws be damned. And each state will be influenced by Republican legal response and, very likely, DOJ intervention, as Barr has already been laying the groundwork to evoke federal voting security laws to challenge unfavourable trends.

Focusing simply on what ought to occur is missing what he and his camp have been doing this entire time: subverting law, norms, and rational expectations of behaviour.

And our discussion could all be moot if he simply decides not to recognise the outcome of the election *if* he loses and the DOJ and Republican legal response work to declare the election fraudulent. The Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs has already said the military will play no part in enforcing the outcome of the election, even if it is contested, and there is no current mechanism for removal of the President in the event he refuses to allow for the peaceful transfer of the powers of the office. The Senate President Pro Tempore — who would likely be a Democrat after the Senate transition in January, if it comes to that — can attempt to enforce the transfer, but as that has never happened, there are varying scenarios of how (or if) Trump could be legally removed. Chuck Grassley will be the Pro Temp before elected transition and it very unlikely he would try to force Trump out.

It’s just not as simple as looking at what should happen, unfortunately. It’s not entirely up to the states independent from RNC, DNC, and federal interventions.

In fact, the primary reason Bush Jr won was because of Republican legal interventions that were partly coordinated by Cheney and a few then federal officials on behalf of the Bush campaign. Being the sitting president (incumbent) provides massive advantages, even in a seemingly state-driven election system.

And we haven’t even touched open McConnell and co’s methodical strategy to stack the lower courts with judges that will likely lean toward Republican expectations for decisions during the legion of ballot challenges.

November and beyond is very likely going to be chaos, mate.
 
I am happy to admit my post is an opinion. Rittenhouse will get his day in court to argue that he’s not a murderer, and his enthusiastic support of Trump’s racism isn’t proof that he’s a racist.
But this is a football forum not a court of law and it’s my opinion he’s a racist murderer and you’re an apologist for a racist murderer and a racist, criminal president.
.Ah look! Something we can all agree on.
 
There will be zero evidence connecting it to Biden, although evidence really doesn't seem to matter that much these days.

If these 7 thugs actually exist at all there is more chance they are RW extremists pretending to be LW thugs as we've seen already at many of the otherwise peaceful protests.
CNN tried to get some government lackie to give details about the supposed flight which was leaving Washington the first time Trump spouted about it and was going to Washington the second time he mentions it.
Got nowhere. The guy hadn’t got the information the prez gets but wanted to spout his own crap instead.
The host wouldn’t let him.
Kept pegging him back but still got no answers.

I just use a rule of thumb with Trump. It’s an old one but never has it been more true about a person.

If his lips are moving, he’s lying.

American politics has gone to shit.
I really hope you come back from the brink, because you’re heading towards bloodshed.
 
He was running from the guy and heard a gun shot. Same guy had approached him where he was having an interview and try to disposses him of his gun. Close by eyewitnesses also claimed Rosenberg grabbed the gun before he was shot.

The case for Self Defense is pretty strong on the facts only. The DA charging will probably try to argue because Rittenhouse was under 18 and thus illegally carrying a weapon anyways, self defense shouldn't apply.

That however is suggesting self defense most likely would have applied had he been 18.

My sense is a Judge is unlikely to find the (
you were in violation of a misdemeanor by holding the gun therefore you can't claim self defense when someone accosted you after attempting to retreat). Just not sure that's a legitimate bar to self defense.
The only fact I can glean from everything I’ve seen on this and other events in America over the last few months is that if the kid was black he would now be dead.
He’d never have walked down the road with an assault rifle and be ignored by the police.

What the hell is a seventeen year old doing walking towards a protest with a rifle?
Apparently driven there from out of state by his mother.

If that’s normal in America you are truly fucked.
 
I am happy to admit my post is an * opinion. Rittenhouse will get his day in court to argue that he’s not a murderer, and his enthusiastic support of Trump’s racism isn’t proof that he’s a racist.
But this is a football forum not a court of law and it’s my opinion he’s a racist murderer and you’re an apologist for a racist murderer and a racist, criminal president.

*uninformed
 
You were just trying to wind up the poster with your response.

Thus I have said stop being a WUM or be excluded from discussions in the thread.

It’s entirely up to you.

Well, I know my intention and it wasn't that. There are different kinds of opinions eg. personal, informed, uninformed.
If I'm guilty of anything it's of being too efficient. I'll make sure to use more words in the future.

He said stop WUMing or stop participating.

Stop WUMing me
 
So Trump in Kenosha appears at Rode's burnt out camera store with the "owner" of the business. Turns out the real owner of the business bought it eight years ago and he wouldn't appear with Trump, although the former owner (Rode) still owned the building.

 
Sadly, Wisconsin has Castle Doctrine:

Wisconsin law allows deadly force in self-defense in the limited circumstances where the person defending themselves “reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm” to their person.


Interesting question:

If someone illegally possesses a firearm in Wisconsin, then another person tries to dispossess him of that firearm, including by force, and he claims Castle Doctrine but uses that illegally owned firearm to kill them “in self-defence,” will it hold up in court?

Let’s hope not, otherwise there is absolutely no point in having ANY gun laws!

Perhaps more germane to the current Trump clusterfuck, an interesting article from Rolling Stone:

End of America

FWIW, when this article was presented for discussion with some supposedly highly edumicated people I know, the “discussion” quickly switched to “Fuck off home then and leave us to our American Exceptionalism!”

I shit you not...
 
Sadly, Wisconsin has Castle Doctrine:

Wisconsin law allows deadly force in self-defense in the limited circumstances where the person defending themselves “reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm” to their person.


Interesting question:

If someone illegally possesses a firearm in Wisconsin, then another person tries to dispossess him of that firearm, including by force, and he claims Castle Doctrine but uses that illegally owned firearm to kill them “in self-defence,” will it hold up in court?

Let’s hope not, otherwise there is absolutely no point in having ANY gun laws!

Perhaps more germane to the current Trump clusterfuck, an interesting article from Rolling Stone:

End of America

FWIW, when this article was presented for discussion with some supposedly highly edumicated people I know, the “discussion” quickly switched to “Fuck off home then and leave us to our American Exceptionalism!”

I shit you not...
A very good article that. I can't even tempt my American relatives to engage on Trump. I suspect it's just too divisive (one is a guy who left the police years ago to go into teaching).
 
The only fact I can glean from everything I’ve seen on this and other events in America over the last few months is that if the kid was black he would now be dead.
He’d never have walked down the road with an assault rifle and be ignored by the police.
That's not a fact. That's an assumption. Facts in this scenario will only include things that already happened. An assumption is what you think would have happened. The above claim falls in the latter category.

What the hell is a seventeen year old doing walking towards a protest with a rifle?
Apparently driven there from out of state by his mother.
1. He wasn't walking towards a protest with a rifle. He was stationed at a Used Car Lot hoping to protect it from rioters ( not Protestors) who were looking to loot and burn businesses down. He was there being interviewed by a reporter when one of the protestors accosted him.

2. He wasn't driven there by his mom. Another false story. He works in Kenosha as a lifeguard and stayed after work to join the Militia guarding properties.

If that’s normal in America you are truly fucked.
I have to agree with your conclusion that we are fucked though. But I'd suggest thstd because more and more people care more about sides than they do about facts. And that I believe is a recipe for disaster.
 
Sadly, Wisconsin has Castle Doctrine:

Wisconsin law allows deadly force in self-defense in the limited circumstances where the person defending themselves “reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm” to their person.


Interesting question:

If someone illegally possesses a firearm in Wisconsin, then another person tries to dispossess him of that firearm, including by force, and he claims Castle Doctrine but uses that illegally owned firearm to kill them “in self-defence,” will it hold up in court?

Let’s hope not, otherwise there is absolutely no point in having ANY gun laws!

Perhaps more germane to the current Trump clusterfuck, an interesting article from Rolling Stone:

End of America

FWIW, when this article was presented for discussion with some supposedly highly edumicated people I know, the “discussion” quickly switched to “Fuck off home then and leave us to our American Exceptionalism!”

I shit you not...
That seems like the argument the Prosecutors intend to try.

A sub question that may be relevant to the above would be whether the person trying to disposses him of the weapon is aware that he is illegally possessing the weapon.

It makes no sense to have a law that says if you illegally have a weapon you are barred from using it to defend yourself against bodily harm.

Now let me describe a hypothetical here: Suppose a 30 year-old with a club attacks a 15 year old and swings on him but misses his head. But in the process of swinging a gun falls from his pocket. The 15 year-old grabs the gun and shoots the guy.

Your conclusion above would suggest the 15 year old couldn't defend himself with the gun since it's illegal for him to possess it (on account that he is 15). I highly doubt that argument would work..
And thus unlikely to work in the Kenosha case either.

What Prosecutors seemingly would need to show is that it was unreasonable of the shooter to assume he was in danger of bodily harm or death simply because someone attempted to disposses him of an illegally held gun.
 
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