Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

wooooo there horsey , the race isn’t over yet .

the idea that a free trade deal IS only good for the UK and not the EU and the EU would be fine without one and are actually doing us a favour Is nonsense . They want a deal , we want a deal let’s hope it happens

lets wait To see the final outcome

Again - the fault here lies in the UK being Remainer led for 3 years

The FTA should have been negotiated in parallel with the WA - none of this serial bollocks

Remainers have tried to fuck up the referendum outcome for years - and they are still trying (but running out of road)

 

[mcfc1632]

100% this. Let's see what the actual details are but it doesn't sound good when we're openly admitting we're going to break international law. Given this backtracking, I'd understand the EU not favourable terms to a partner it can't trust.

The weird one for me is that Johnson negotiated this deal, prevented parliamentary scrutiny of it and subsequently won a GE on virtue of him getting Brexit done with it. Now he's backtracking and Brexit supporters are still backing him! Honestly why??

Really??

You think that the EU have been previously offering favourable terms??

Re your last para - I have already explained the reality of that

 

[Ancient Citizen]

All this indignant outrage - Delicious

So many butthurt and not able to understand why its all going tits for them

Oh - and that **** Bercow - don't hear much from him anymore;-)

No, we don't, last I heard he'd been rejected by the Harlem Globetrotters.

 

[Vic]

Soft Brexit would not have worked, because there was nothing on the ballot paper that provided for it. It's a term coined by remainers after the vote to Stay in the EU's single market and customs union, in other words, not leaving, so nothing to do with ERG, or any other obscure groups, just the will of the people.

"We will still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border." Soft Brexit in the Vote Leave manifesto.

I do see why Leavers are so cavalier about truth and legality. It has ever been thus.

 

[Vic]

The amount of times you see on here that the world is laughing at us.
Some folk must have an awful lot of mates.

Or read something other than what Murdoch feeds you.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Every country in the EU is an independent sovereign state. I’m pretty sure they understand the concept.

They also understand the concept of honouring agreements. Does the UK?

none of this would have mattered had the WA and the free trade agreement been negotiated and agreed in parallel at the same time but we asked , eu said no and TM said Ok.

most folks will be confused who don’t follow this on the bluemoon website though as boris did say he had an oven ready deal to go. The future bit of that deal , we Only had a recipe .

the messaging was misleading though I agree as boris did make out that it was all ready and sorted and clearly it wasn’t.

 

[Rascal]

The amount of times you see on here that the world is laughing at us.
Some folk must have an awful lot of mates.

I have good friends in Barcelona and the Algarve who both tell me the locals think the UK has lost the plot and don't understand our intransigence or our scepticism. They always regarded the UK as a beacon of common sense, the home of democracy, good solid sensible diplomacy and fair play, but now they look at the UK with astonishment and yes they think that on the world stage we are now a laughing stock.

Both these countries endured years of Fascism and saw the UK as a democratic beacon of hope, now they are just confused by the nations attitude and the Governments incompetence. They don't laugh at the people, the Portugeuse especially have great affection for the British as we have been their allies for hundreds of years, they laugh at our governments utter failure to compromise. Obviously both countries have a lot to lose from the UK leaving the EU as we are major contributors to their tourist economies and they worry our self enforced isolation will harm there prosperity.

To think the rest of the world see what our government is attempting to do as rational is somewhat naive in my opinion, it certainly isn't rational and goes against everything we have always stood for. Its a clear ploy in my opinion to rescue Johnson's falling approval rating and a case once again of Johnson putting himself before the nations interests and it is shameful that MPs in his party support this flagrant breaking of international law. It is against everything that the UK has stood for and built, it further alienates us from countries we will need if we are to continue to prosper and yes it does make us look like a laughing stock, a big huge fucking laughing stock with a big huge laughing stock hat on.

As i said in my long post the other day, its not the fault of the people who voted for Brexit, I would do so again myself, its the fault of the most incompetent government that I have seen in my lifetime. Sides have been chosen though and those sides must be supported whatever idiocy they come up with in order to achieve their aims. Morality and ethics do not count anymore as long as the goal is achieved and that saddens me. We deserve so much better and we deserve the democratic mandate to be honoured in the proper way by decent politicians who actually have a clue what to do rather than acting out of self interest and self promotion.

 

[BobKowalski]

100% this. Let's see what the actual details are but it doesn't sound good when we're openly admitting we're going to break international law. Given this backtracking, I'd understand the EU not favourable terms to a partner it can't trust.

The weird one for me is that Johnson negotiated this deal, prevented parliamentary scrutiny of it and subsequently won a GE on virtue of him getting Brexit done with it. Now he's backtracking and Brexit supporters are still backing him! Honestly why??

Because they have nowhere left to go. No matter where this ends up they are strapped in for the ride. Johnson says ‘cheer for this, it is great‘, they will cheer. Johnson says ’boo to this, it is bad’, they will boo. No matter it is the same thing, no matter the cost, no matter the rationale and the lies. All that matters is Brexit. A perpetual grievance that will never be resolved because it can only exist and thrive as a grievance and never as an end state.

 

[bluejon]

Soft Brexit would not have worked, because there was nothing on the ballot paper that provided for it. It's a term coined by remainers after the vote to Stay in the EU's single market and customs union, in other words, not leaving, so nothing to do with ERG, or any other obscure groups, just the will of the people.

Will of the people my arse. We both know what the question was on that ballot, it just said leave the EU. Anyway, we are now out, and with captain clown in charge it's pretty much guaranteed to be a complete mess over the next few months as Johnson doesn't prepare for anything.

 

[Vic]

wooooo there horsey , the race isn’t over yet .

the idea that a free trade deal IS only good for the UK and not the EU and the EU would be fine without one and are actually doing us a favour Is nonsense . They want a deal , we want a deal let’s hope it happens

lets wait To see the final outcome

Well of course they want a deal. Just not one that gives us what we've currently got but with no obligations. But unicorns eating and keeping cake is where we came in.

 

[Vic]

Every country in the EU is an independent sovereign state. I’m pretty sure they understand the concept.

They also understand the concept of honouring agreements. Does the UK?

It seems our resident great bloviator negotiator doesn't. I thought it was about "getting to yes" not "getting to yes but no but yes but no".

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Will of the people my arse. We both know what the question was on that ballot, it just said leave the EU. Anyway, we are now out, and with captain clown in charge it's pretty much guaranteed to be a complete mess over the next few months as Johnson doesn't prepare for anything.

that is my biggest worry . He may sign another deal without reading that as well.

 

[Vic]

100% this. Let's see what the actual details are but it doesn't sound good when we're openly admitting we're going to break international law. Given this backtracking, I'd understand the EU not favourable terms to a partner it can't trust.

The weird one for me is that Johnson negotiated this deal, prevented parliamentary scrutiny of it and subsequently won a GE on virtue of him getting Brexit done with it. Now he's backtracking and Brexit supporters are still backing him! Honestly why??

They're Brexit crazy. They're Brexit mad. The Brexit it has robbed them o the little bit o sense they had.

 

[blueinsa]

Is the Bill published today?

 

[west didsblue]

that is my biggest worry . He may sign another deal without reading that as well.

Absolutely correct.
Chances are the FTA (if it happens) will be shit. But the Brexit sycophants will love it if Johnson hails it as a victory, which he obviously will.

 

[Vic]

Again - the fault here lies in the UK being Remainer led for 3 years

The FTA should have been negotiated in parallel with the WA - none of this serial bollocks

Remainers have tried to fuck up the referendum outcome for years - and they are still trying (but running out of road)

All sequenced according to Article 50, which the UK drafted. But then you clearly care nothing for rules and laws.

 

[west didsblue]

All sequenced according to Article 50, which the UK drafted. But then you clearly care nothing for rules and laws.

..or logic or reality.

 

[mcfc1632]

that is my biggest worry . He may sign another deal without reading that as well.

Nah - the WA was the EU's - slavishly accepted by May/Robbins

Johnson just happened to be in the chair when it was time to decide whether to either renegotiate it or move on and then dump it

Johnson is a clown with no understanding of detail - thankfully he seems to have people around/behind him that do understand detail and have nerve and grit

It won't be him that does the detail of any future agreements

Given the size of the hole May/Robbins dug for the EU - I am personally delighted to see the developing events.

They did well to initially dump the unfettered backstop - but May's WA still was loaded with EU controls over the UK.

I have been saying for months that we need to fully dump the PD and then try and limit the impacts of the WA through new legislation- but the level of steel and callousness being demonstrated is beyond my wildest hopes and expectations.

This must be Cummings behind the scenes - Johnson is not bright enough

 

[BobKowalski]

none of this would have mattered had the WA and the free trade agreement been negotiated and agreed in parallel at the same time but we asked , eu said no and TM said Ok.

most folks will be confused who don’t follow this on the bluemoon website though as boris did say he had an oven ready deal to go. The future bit of that deal , we Only had a recipe .

the messaging was misleading though I agree as boris did make out that it was all ready and sorted and clearly it wasn’t.

Agreed. But it kind of sums up our problem with Brexit. The UK always had this belief that the EU would act in accordance with the plan we had scripted out for them. We vote for Brexit, we negotiate a deal ‘that is everyone’s interests’ because German carmakers and the EU sell us a lot of stuff and we can sort out the NI border because we will have this great new deal that everyone is happy with.

Except for four years the EU and the E27 countries declined to follow the path we had kindly mapped out for them. We never seemed to grasp that, like us, they are sovereign countries that are quite capable of deciding what their own best interests are and pursuing those interests accordingly. Interests that did not match what we felt was best for them.

The problem is not that the EU do not see us as a sovereign independent country. The problem is that we don’t think 27 sovereign countries should put their interests above our own.

If people think the UK is right to unilaterally change an international agreement as an independent sovereign country then 27 other independent sovereign countries also have the right to make unilateral changes to benefit them. And if both sides are making unilateral changes then you don’t really have a deal and there is no point in signing another one.

 

[mcfc1632]

Is the Bill published today?

Yes - I read that in some articles earlier