Another new Brexit thread

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inbetween said:
One of the professionals resigned yesterday over the position that is being taken. Whatever deal we wanted we are just eroding all credibility on our part of the process and that includes degrading our ability to negotiate.

www.theguardian.com

Jonathan Jones' resignation over Brexit law-breaking met with dismay

Friends and colleagues say top civil servant in intolerable position after advice ignored
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

We are meant to be the creators of the law based parliamentary system yet here we are advocating bypassing it, even the Tories themselves don't agree it's right.

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Oh - I am fully with you

It is entirely uncomfortable to be in a position where the UK is positioned to break international law

Worse though would be to commit the UK to major constraints on its ability to strategically manage its own affairs as an independent state - and if some reports are true - not responding robustly to attempts at inappropriate leverage' by the EU

Anyway - I am just back from being busy so have not seen any updates today - but is not the scope of this 'tinkering' limited to dealing with the risk of a threat from the EU to cause disruption to the UK if there was a no-deal?:

"......The EU has a list of non-EU countries that can import agricultural goods into its territory. Under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, which prevents the need for a hard border on the island of Ireland, Northern Ireland remains subject to EU food rules after the end of Brexit transition period.

The Sun reported that British officials were infuriated after a “veiled threat” that the UK could not make the list if there was a no deal, which could mean the EU could declare British food imports to Northern Ireland illegal."

MSN

www.msn.com

Due to ineptness of May/Robbins the EU have learned that they can take the piss during 2016-2019 - why do those with the UK's interests as a priority wish to see that continued (that comment is in no way aimed at you)

If there is substance behind this reported veiled threat - should we not be welcoming this robust action? If there is a deal then there is not breaking of international law - the EU should stop playing these games and negotiate in good faith
 
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mcfc1632 said:
Oh - I am fully with you

It is entirely uncomfortable to be in a position where the UK is positioned to break international law

Worse though would be to commit the UK to major constraints on its ability to strategically manage our own affairs as an independent state - and if some reports are true - 'attempts at inappropriate leverage' by the EU

Anyway - I am just back from being elsewhere so have not seen any updates today - but is not the scope of this 'tinkering' limited to dealing with the risk of a threat from the EU to cause disruption to the UK if there was a no-deal:

"......The EU has a list of non-EU countries that can import agricultural goods into its territory. Under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, which prevents the need for a hard border on the island of Ireland, Northern Ireland remains subject to EU food rules after the end of Brexit transition period.

The Sun reported that British officials were infuriated after a “veiled threat” that the UK could not make the list if there was a no deal, which could mean the EU could declare British food imports to Northern Ireland illegal."

MSN

www.msn.com

Due to ineptness of May/Robbins the EU have learned that they can take the piss during 2016-2019 - why do those with the UK's interests as a priority wish to see that continued (that comment is in no way aimed at you)

If there is substance behind this reported veiled threat - should we not be welcoming this robust action? If there is a deal then there is not breaking of international law - the EU should stop playing these games and negotiate in good faith
Click to expand...

Yeah, it’s bollocks. Dublin would never countenance it for starters and there is provision in the WA for the UK to take ‘unilateral action’ at the point any EU measures produce ‘societal disruption’ in NI.

At that point any action taken by the UK would have legal standing under International Law.

The real reasons for this hoohah is 1) to save Johnson’s blushes in promising there would be no customs checks despite everyone telling him he was talking bollocks and 2) to escape the State Aid provisions so that we can satisfy Cummings dream of building a tech industry with billions of tax payers money. This from the cunts who couldn’t get a track and trace app to work.

In summary we intend to shred a century or so of international standing to save the PM from looking a moron and to satisfy Cummings fantasy that he is the next Steve Jobs.
 
So text is out and basically it says ‘no matter what any treaty, convention or agreement says or any international judgement from any International Court we can do what we like (even though we know it is illegal under International Law)’.

I look forward to the counter text on behalf of every other country we deal with that states ‘no matter what we agree with the UK we will now do what we like’.

As it stands we will have no agreements given there is no guarantee we will honour them, nor accept any arbitration judgement that arise out of disputes in any agreement.

I think we have made progress today. Everyone now knows where the UK stands on matters of law and binding agreements :)
 
bluejon said:
Will of the people my arse. We both know what the question was on that ballot, it just said leave the EU. Anyway, we are now out, and with captain clown in charge it's pretty much guaranteed to be a complete mess over the next few months as Johnson doesn't prepare for anything.
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The point being discussed was was the ridiculous term 'Soft Brexit.'
And yes as you say, it just said leave, not leave softly, by staying in a bit.
 
BobKowalski said:
So text is out and basically it says ‘no matter what any treaty, convention or agreement says or any international judgement from any International Court we can do what we like (even though we know it is illegal under International Law)’.

I look forward to the counter text on behalf of every other country we deal with that states ‘no matter what we agree with the UK we will now do what we like’.

As it stands we will have no agreements given there is no guarantee we will honour them, nor accept any arbitration judgement that arise out of disputes in any agreement.

I think we have made progress today. Everyone now knows where the UK stands on matters of law and binding agreements :)
Click to expand...

In mid January I wouldn't be surprised to see Spain massing at the Gibraltar border - after all its only International Law that says its ours and we no longer think they matter one jot. France can hoover up our fish once we disregard International Law - you could well see how this unravels
 
‘Soz, we were in a hurry’

Nicola is having fun though...

‘In the General Election it was, according to the PM ‘oven ready’ - now, when they want to jettison it in breach of international law, it was ‘signed in a rush’. What a bunch of incompetent and unscrupulous chancers - and they are trashing the UK’s international reputation‘ @NicolaSturgeon

 
BobKowalski said:
Yeah, it’s bollocks. Dublin would never countenance it for starters and there is provision in the WA for the UK to take ‘unilateral action’ at the point any EU measures produce ‘societal disruption’ in NI.

At that point any action taken by the UK would have legal standing under International Law.

The real reasons for this hoohah is 1) to save Johnson’s blushes in promising there would be no customs checks despite everyone telling him he was talking bollocks and 2) to escape the State Aid provisions so that we can satisfy Cummings dream of building a tech industry with billions of tax payers money. This from the cunts who couldn’t get a track and trace app to work.

In summary we intend to shred a century or so of international standing to save the PM from looking a moron and to satisfy Cummings fantasy that he is the next Steve Jobs.
Click to expand...
As far as saving the PM from looking a moron, that ship sailed a long time ago.
 
bluethrunthru said:
In mid January I wouldn't be surprised to see Spain massing at the Gibraltar border - after all its only International Law that says its ours and we no longer think they matter one jot. France can hoover up our fish once we disregard International Law - you could well see how this unravels
Click to expand...

To be honest, it’s so pathetic as to be laughable. And all because Cummings wants to play ‘Tech Tycoon’. Easier and cheaper to buy him the video game.

This latest shoddy effort is like watching a five year old trying to cheat at chess by eating some of the pieces.
 
mcfc1632 said:
I think most Brexiteers should take note of the advice in this article:

conservativewoman.co.uk

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement - The Conservative Woman

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement
conservativewoman.co.uk conservativewoman.co.uk

It certainly echoes my thinking - and those with direct experience of managing major negotiations will know that when the other party suggest that it might be a good idea to reduce tension by switching out the lead negotiators - that is a sure sign they are on that back foot and concerned about the effectiveness of your lead.

I have said for months that Johnson is the weak link and I just hope that he keeps out of direct involvement and just supports Frost and others - let's hope his vanity does not lead him to get involved with von der Leyden directly - like he did with Varadkar - that would not be good.

The UK has ended up in a place where the EU now have to recognise the size of the majority the government holds which means that they can be confident in bringing forward primary legislation - they will be dismayed after enjoying all those years of Remainer duplicity at Westminster.

Johnson just needs to hold his nerve and let professionals lead on this - and please FFS not get personally involved
Click to expand...
Good article, that, the legalities are plain there. I liked the bit about Helmut Kohl and the euro, thinking we and the Swiss would join within 10 years, but didn't, now they've got all the bills and are desperate to pass the buck.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Good article, that, the legalities are plain there. I liked the bit about Helmut Kohl and the euro, thinking we and the Swiss would join within 10 years, but didn't, now they've got all the bills and are desperate to pass the buck.
Click to expand...

Helmut Kohl? Sure, let’s chat about a German Chancellor from the last century. Oh wait, I forgot, that‘s you guys being up to date and contemporary.
 
mcfc1632 said:
I think most Brexiteers should take note of the advice in this article:

conservativewoman.co.uk

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement - The Conservative Woman

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement
conservativewoman.co.uk conservativewoman.co.uk

It certainly echoes my thinking - and those with direct experience of managing major negotiations will know that when the other party suggest that it might be a good idea to reduce tension by switching out the lead negotiators - that is a sure sign they are on that back foot and concerned about the effectiveness of your lead.

I have said for months that Johnson is the weak link and I just hope that he keeps out of direct involvement and just supports Frost and others - let's hope his vanity does not lead him to get involved with von der Leyden directly - like he did with Varadkar - that would not be good.

The UK has ended up in a place where the EU now have to recognise the size of the majority the government holds which means that they can be confident in bringing forward primary legislation - they will be dismayed after enjoying all those years of Remainer duplicity at Westminster.

Johnson just needs to hold his nerve and let professionals lead on this - and please FFS not get personally involved
Click to expand...
Desperation oozing from this post.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
The point being discussed was was the ridiculous term 'Soft Brexit.'
And yes as you say, it just said leave, not leave softly, by staying in a bit.
Click to expand...
They do like a bit of revisionism

Leave - Cameron helped understanding the scope - it was leave the SM, CU, ECJ - there was no ambiguity
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Good article, that, the legalities are plain there. I liked the bit about Helmut Kohl and the euro, thinking we and the Swiss would join within 10 years, but didn't, now they've got all the bills and are desperate to pass the buck.
Click to expand...
I am sure that all the 'usual suspects' are reacting as expected to inconvenient truths;-)

Just think - less than a year ago - all that arrogance, confidence and condescension - replaced with childish wailing. Some posters are being entirely sensible - I also wish that we were not 'where we are' - but some of the usual suspect are coming across as simply butt hurt and having a paddy
 
mcfc1632 said:
They do like a bit of revisionism

Leave - Cameron helped understanding the scope - it was leave the SM, CU, ECJ - there was no ambiguity
Click to expand...

Cameron did say that - he went on to say it would be a disaster and we shouldn't do it. Boris Johnson - King of the leavers - said the exact opposite, that it would be great and we would have an easy deal with the exact same benefits. Looks like Boris and his arsehole leave campaigners were full of shit. But yeah you keep flagging up what Cameron said.
 
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