Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

Anyway back on topic.....

Perhaps not the sharpest tool in the box, but this seems a perfectly good stance for the UK to take - and does not sound remotely like the UK has caved into EU demands of last week:

Britain and the European Union have made real progress in Brexit trade talks and a deal is possible but if the bloc does not come to an agreement then Britain will leave without a deal, Trade Secretary Liz Truss said on Friday.

“We’re in intense negotiations with the EU - we’ve made real progress,” Truss said. “We want to get a good deal with the EU, a deal like they have with Canada, which we think is perfectly reasonable.”

“We’re making good progress on the negotiations,” Truss said. “But if the EU aren’t prepared to do a deal that allows the UK to retain its sovereignty, then we will go to Australia style terms, and I think that’s perfectly reasonable.”

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

uk.reuters.com

 

[west didsblue]

More nonsense about sovereignty from Truss.
As we have always had our sovereignty, claiming that we have reclaimed it is completely disingenuous, but it appeals to some Brexiteers who will claim it as some sort of concession by the other side.

 

[RabidCity]

More nonsense about sovereignty from Truss.
As we have always had our sovereignty, claiming that we have reclaimed it is completely disingenuous, but it appeals to some Brexiteers who will claim it as some sort of concession by the other side.

I’m perhaps misunderstanding the debate but I’ve seen loads of examples of what I consider ‘regaining sovereignty’ (for example the news link I posted yesterday where we can now refuse criminals at the border in line with our own rules, rather than giving preference to EU criminals or the removal of the tampon tax etc)

is this not regaining sovereignty? To me these are the few benefits of Brexit but your post says we always had it.

 

[Blue Hefner]

I’m perhaps misunderstanding the debate but I’ve seen loads of examples of what I consider ‘regaining sovereignty’ (for example the news link I posted yesterday where we can now refuse criminals at the border in line with our own rules, rather than giving preference to EU criminals or the removal of the tampon tax etc)

is this not regaining sovereignty? To me these are the few benefits of Brexit but your post says we always had it.

I don't know about VAT on tampons but at face value it seems a ridiculous tax. It is an essential item as far as I am concerned. Regards people with criminal records, particulary 1 years in prison. From my understanding we've always been able to refuse entry to criminals/those we think pose a threat but we sacked 10 thousand Border Force staff so like a lot of these polices become unworkable.

I doubt it was a priorty stopping a 40 year old family man becuase he served 12 months 20 years ago - I doubt it will become a prioty on the 1st January 2021

 

[Vic]

Sovereignty is as sovereignty does. It's a simple test. If we weren't a sovereign state we wouldn't / couldn't have joined, or left. We've always been a sovereign state.

I'm not sure there is anything of substance in Truss's comments. More just saying nothing. No wonder it appealed to those with logorrhea.
.

 

[RabidCity]

I don't know about VAT on tampons but at face value it seems a ridiculous tax. It is an essential item as far as I am concerned. Regards people with criminal records, particulary 1 years in prison. From my understanding we've always been able to refuse entry to criminals/those we think pose a threat but we sacked 10 thousand Border Force staff so like a lot of these polices become unworkable.

I doubt it was a priorty stopping a 40 year old family man becuase he served 12 months 20 years ago - I doubt it will become a prioty on the 1st January 2021

But these are EU’s rules that we are unable to change as a nation, but can now do so. Regardless of how small the impact isn’t this regaining sovereignty in the eyes of many?

 

[jaseirai]

I’m perhaps misunderstanding the debate but I’ve seen loads of examples of what I consider ‘regaining sovereignty’ (for example the news link I posted yesterday where we can now refuse criminals at the border in line with our own rules, rather than giving preference to EU criminals or the removal of the tampon tax etc)

is this not regaining sovereignty? To me these are the few benefits of Brexit but your post says we always had it.

You are correct and not misunderstanding anything.
Factortame is one good example of why.

Landmarks in law: the 90s fishing case that stoked UK Euroscepticism

Before Factortame, some UK politicians hadn’t fully grasped the power of EU law over parliament

www.theguardian.com

 

[Zuriblue]

Proud Brexiter updates his ‘British Independence Day’ tattoo with yet another leaving date

Proud Brexit supporter and patriot Derek Williams has this morning updated his UK Independence Day tattoo, after hearing that a ‘proper Brexit’ might finally be happening – this t…

newsthump.com

 

[Blue Hefner]

But these are EU’s rules that we are unable to change as a nation, but can now do so. Regardless of how small the impact isn’t this regaining sovereignty in the eyes of many?

We don't need to change the rules on letting people who have served 12 months in jail becuase we can already stop them.

But even if that wasn't the case, was it a price worth paying? I very much doubt it but we will see in the coming years

 

[Saddleworth2]

Anyway back on topic.....

Perhaps not the sharpest tool in the box, but this seems a perfectly good stance for the UK to take - not does not sound remotely like the UK has caved into EU demands of last week:

Britain and the European Union have made real progress in Brexit trade talks and a deal is possible but if the bloc does not come to an agreement then Britain will leave without a deal, Trade Secretary Liz Truss said on Friday.

“We’re in intense negotiations with the EU - we’ve made real progress,” Truss said. “We want to get a good deal with the EU, a deal like they have with Canada, which we think is perfectly reasonable.”

“We’re making good progress on the negotiations,” Truss said. “But if the EU aren’t prepared to do a deal that allows the UK to retain its sovereignty, then we will go to Australia style terms, and I think that’s perfectly reasonable.”

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

uk.reuters.com

Australia type deal. Every time they use that term they reveal their deep cynicism And dishonesty.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Is that not also the concern of British farmers?

Shame really that you want a ‘genuine Brexit’ with nothing to tie us to the EU, as the lack of an Agreement will cause a lot of harm to the farming communities on both sides of the unfortunate divide that now exists between ourselves and Europe.

Nah, it’s still only 20 odd miles or so.

 

[BobKowalski]

But these are EU’s rules that we are unable to change as a nation, but can now do so. Regardless of how small the impact isn’t this regaining sovereignty in the eyes of many?

No, that is taking back unilateral control of an issue, not an issue of sovereignty.

As a sovereign nation, like all other sovereign nations, we have ultimate say. We may decide to join forces with another nation and agree on set rules to govern the movement of people between the two nations and for as long as that agreement lasts then those rules will apply.

Once the agreement lapses or is terminated then the rules under it no longer apply. At that point we either agree new rules or decide we no longer wish to abide by joint rules and set our own rules unilaterally.

In all cases we are sovereign as we are the sole arbiters of what we decide to do. This is true of all sovereign nations.

 

[RabidCity]

No, that is taking back unilateral control of an issue, not an issue of sovereignty.

As a sovereign nation, like all other sovereign nations, we have ultimate say. We may decide to join forces with another nation and agree on set rules to govern the movement of people between the two nations and for as long as that agreement lasts then those rules will apply.

Once the agreement lapses or is terminated then the rules under it no longer apply. At that point we either agree new rules or decide we no longer wish to abide by joint rules and set our own rules unilaterally.

In all cases we are sovereign as are the sole arbiters of what we decide to do. This is true if all sovereign nations.

thanks for explaining. So perhaps the issue is people’s understanding of sovereignty. Perhaps they should have campaigned for taking back control of unilateral issues.

 

[BobKowalski]

Nah, it’s still only 20 odd miles or so.

Then the Irish farming community should not be worried then.

 

[BobKowalski]

thanks for explaining. So perhaps the issue is people’s understanding of sovereignty. Perhaps they should have campaigned for taking back control of unilateral issues.

In effect, yes. The very act of leaving the EU proves we are sovereign. It is ultimately our choice to stay or leave. To abide by common rules or not.

Scotland is not sovereign as it cannot unilaterally decide to make the choice to stay or leave our Union. It needs the consent of another Govt based in a different country before it can ask its people.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m perhaps misunderstanding the debate but I’ve seen loads of examples of what I consider ‘regaining sovereignty’ (for example the news link I posted yesterday where we can now refuse criminals at the border in line with our own rules, rather than giving preference to EU criminals or the removal of the tampon tax etc)

is this not regaining sovereignty? To me these are the few benefits of Brexit but your post says we always had it.

You are spot on - and a very good case is the discussions on the LPF

The EU's stance is that it wants to essentially control the UK's key economic and financial polices in perpetuity - well that would hardly reflect the UK as a sovereign nation would it.

Some Remainers only understand the dictionary definition of the word and not the practical operation

Some just keep repeating statements they have heard somewhere because they fit the narrative - but, it seems, without really understanding them

 

[BobKowalski]

Say it isn’t so...

 

[mcfc1632]

But these are EU’s rules that we are unable to change as a nation, but can now do so. Regardless of how small the impact isn’t this regaining sovereignty in the eyes of many?

As some say - simples

Sovereignty is as sovereignty does

and if you have had to hand over control of key domestic policy to a supranational body - you are not a fully sovereign state

Don't worry - you are not alone in understanding the simplicity of this

 

[BobKowalski]

You are spot on - and a very good case is the discussions on the LPF

The EU's stance is that it wants to essentially control the UK's key economic and financial polices in perpetuity - well that would hardly reflect the UK as a sovereign nation would it.

Some Remainers only understand the dictionary definition of the word and not the practical operation

Some just keep repeating statements they have heard somewhere because they fit the narrative - but, it seems, without really understanding them

As a sovereign nation it is our choice to how much we integrate with other European nations. We can choose to integrate at the level we do now or reduce it to zero.

What the EU wants is irrelevant because they cannot impose that decision on us. They can make options for integration more attractive or punitive, which is their sovereign choice, but they cannot dictate that decision.

The UK is fully sovereign, even to the extent of allowing the EU economic writ to operate in NI. Ultimately, it was our choice to allow that. It could not be imposed. The only imposition of measures on countries that are contrary to those countries wishes is being done by the UK Govt.

 

[BobKowalski]

As be say - simples

Sovereignty is as sovereignty does

and if you have had to hand over control of key domestic policy to a supranational body - you are not a fully sovereign state

Don't worry - you are not alone in understanding the simplicity of this

We choose to hand over. It is our sovereign choice. As is rescinding that choice. You are confusing ‘control’ with ‘sovereignty’. All member nations of the EU are sovereign. To say otherwise is false.