Another new Brexit thread

[gordondaviesmoustache]

TBF - I accept that your comment on people being thick was just a general and accurate comment - not one aimed at Leavers collectively- apols

Also, TBF, I don't think anyone that actually knows me has ever considered me to be thick - or insecure;-)

Me neither :-)

 

[meltonblue]

What has been happening these lasts months has been negotiating a deal - rather than implementing it

My comment was in the context that - from a POV of negotiations - an extension would have been beneficial to the EU - hence they went for it big-time and resisting an extension was to the benefit of the UK

The detail of the emerging deal and the materialisation of compromises by the EU only occurs due to the implementation date being hardwired - they would not be making the same movement if there had been an extension

Yes I get the point, but any potential detrimental impact to negotiating position is not going to be as impactful as implementation of a deal and the changes that will bring at this stage in the pandemic.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yes I get the point, but any potential detrimental impact to negotiating position is not going to be as impactful as implementation of a deal and the changes that will bring at this stage in the pandemic.

That is of course your opinion and I can fully understand you holding it.

It is certainly a very reasonable view to hold especially if you are either a committed Remainer or ambivalent to whether we genuinely Leave the EU or not.

From the POV of someone that holds the view that the health of the UK for generations to come is dependent on not just Leaving the EU - but genuinely Leaving the EU - meaning in a manner that we would/could not readily be reabsorbed, then you should not be surprised that the view is different. We would place as a priority the need of an outcome that effects that and we need years for it to bed in before the next election.

The pandemic has been such an awful event at so many levels - but it will come to an end in a relatively short time from now and its consequences can be managed over a long period. This is/will be the only opportunity that the UK will have to break free from the gradual, but incessant, deterioration that would result from continued membership.

So I hope that you can respect those committed to Leaving holding their views as I respect the rights of you and others to hold theirs.

 

[BobKowalski]

I have repeatedly expressed my concerns that Johnson will concede based on his stupidity rather than as part of an agreed strategy.

If I was Frost, I would be advising that a better outcome for the UK than the one we are currently 'tentatively' agreed on - before Macron's intervention - would be to offer a 5 year extension of the current status - in return for more concessions from the EU on LPF.

Macron would take that as it would help his domestic issues ahead of the French election and that could - most likely would - lead to a double/treble win for the UK overall

And Germany wouldn’t. German focus is the integrity of the Single Market and the European Project. French focus is similar, but with the domestic importance of fish also a factor. This is also true with Belgium, Netherlands, and Spain.

And there is no win for the UK irrespective of what happens. On the 1st Jan we will have trade barriers with our biggest market and nearest neighbours. The negotiations with the EU are simply about how high do we want those trade barriers to be.

The UK as an international trading nation lost four years ago. All we are doing now is waiting for the final score to determine by how much we lost.

 

[BobKowalski]

This is the point I made last night. UVL cannot shift beyond the E27 mandate without risking their support for any deal. The coastal EU states are looking at ‘no deal’ being preferable to a ‘bad deal’, and so after four years we have come full circle.

‘Von der Leyen has the more difficult task today. She is speaking on behalf of 27 govts including 1—France—that is threatening to veto. But if she sticks rigidly to the current EU position, the talks will fail; an outcome that von der Leyen does not want.’ @spectator

 

[Saddleworth2]

What has been happening these lasts months has been negotiating a deal - rather than implementing it

My comment was in the context that - from a POV of negotiations - an extension would have been beneficial to the EU - hence they went for it big-time and resisting an extension was to the benefit of the UK

The detail of the emerging deal and the materialisation of compromises by the EU only occurs due to the implementation date being hardwired - they would not be making the same movement if there had been an extension

Dat true dat.

 

[BobKowalski]

What has been happening these lasts months has been negotiating a deal - rather than implementing it

My comment was in the context that - from a POV of negotiations - an extension would have been beneficial to the EU - hence they went for it big-time and resisting an extension was to the benefit of the UK

The detail of the emerging deal and the materialisation of compromises by the EU only occurs due to the implementation date being hardwired - they would not be making the same movement if there had been an extension

A hard deadline concentrates minds. Whether that deadline is the end of 2020 or the end of 2021 doesn’t alter that fact.

The shape of the deal, the three sticking points have been know for months, the only thing missing was the UK or 27 other nations deciding whether to move or not. Again, this would have played out the same 12 months from now, the only real difference would have been the absence of a pandemic which has put more pressure on the UK side as we have more to do, preparation wise, and the pandemic has hampered that preparation.

Not securing the additional 12 months extension was a failure of the UK state and has caused additional tensions between ourselves and European countries. The inability to see this is symptomatic of the myopia that infects UK politics.

 

[meltonblue]

That is of course your opinion and I can fully understand you holding it.

It is certainly a very reasonable view to hold especially if you are either a committed Remainer or ambivalent to whether we genuinely Leave the EU or not.

From the POV of someone that holds the view that the health of the UK for generations to come is dependent on not just Leaving the EU - but genuinely Leaving the EU - meaning in a manner that we would/could not readily be reabsorbed, then we place as a priority the need of an outcome that effects that and we need years for it to bed in before the next election.

The pandemic has been such an awful event at so many levels - but it will come to an end in a relatively short time from now and its consequences can be managed over a long period. This is/will be the only opportunity that the UK will have to break free from the gradual, but incessant, deterioration that would result from continued membership.

So I hope that you can respect those committed to Leaving holding their views as I respect the rights of others to hold theirs.

Personally, I think we should be well beyond people’s opinions on remain or leave, that ship sailed years ago (I realise that isn’t true for everyone) and instead focus on real world impacts.

This past six months, every meeting I’ve attended at work has either been about covid planning or brexit planning. Any other project has had to be shelved as those have had to be prioritised. The business I work for is a pharmaceutical wholesaler and retailer and very involved in the covid planning and it is not going to come to an end in a relatively short time, it will take at least all of next year too. It’s madness trying to plan that and the still plentiful unknowns involved with that side when at the same time we’re also having to plan for the unknowns of what the brexit deal may bring too.

I just don’t believe when you already have a level of unprecedented uncertainty in the market and the economy, you intentionally add more, which isn’t a short term necessity, uncertainty on to it. It’s just nuts.

The only people that seemingly still want to push it are those shielded from some of those impacts and so still only focus on what they want to happen from their own personal ideological perspective. I don’t really have an issue with that, it’s the world we’re in nowadays, but there’s people that should be thinking more holistically that really should know better.

 

[BobKowalski]

And talking of myopia...while the UK bangs on about sovereignty and national interest, as soon as another nation does it we have have a collective meltdown.

Additionally, our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good. Sometimes I think we are a country without a fucking clue.

No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest @spectator

Only France would try to blow up the Brexit talks

That France was the country to throw a grenade threatening to blow up the UK-EU trade talks just as they were about to pass the finish line, does not come as a surprise to seasoned euro-watchers. No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest at the cost to other EU...

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[jaseirai]

And talking of myopia...while the UK bangs on about sovereignty and national interest, as soon as another nation does it we have have a collective meltdown.

Additionally, our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good. Sometimes I think we are a country without a fucking clue.

No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest @spectator

Only France would try to blow up the Brexit talks

That France was the country to throw a grenade threatening to blow up the UK-EU trade talks just as they were about to pass the finish line, does not come as a surprise to seasoned euro-watchers. No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest at the cost to other EU...

www.spectator.co.uk

Micron is doing a great job.
I also admire him for always taking his mum to official engagements.

 

[journolud]

Micron is doing a great job.
I also admire him for always taking his mum to official engagements.

If you don’t want to be seen as xenophobic you can always go down the ageism route

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

And talking of myopia...while the UK bangs on about sovereignty and national interest, as soon as another nation does it we have have a collective meltdown.

Additionally, our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good. Sometimes I think we are a country without a fucking clue.

No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest @spectator

Only France would try to blow up the Brexit talks

That France was the country to throw a grenade threatening to blow up the UK-EU trade talks just as they were about to pass the finish line, does not come as a surprise to seasoned euro-watchers. No other EU member would so brazenly promote its own domestic self-interest at the cost to other EU...

www.spectator.co.uk

...just as the same folk that think our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good and think we are a country without a fucking clue celebrate France doing the same.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

A hard deadline concentrates minds. Whether that deadline is the end of 2020 or the end of 2021 doesn’t alter that fact.

The shape of the deal, the three sticking points have been know for months, the only thing missing was the UK or 27 other nations deciding whether to move or not. Again, this would have played out the same 12 months from now, the only real difference would have been the absence of a pandemic which has put more pressure on the UK side as we have more to do, preparation wise, and the pandemic has hampered that preparation.

Not securing the additional 12 months extension was a failure of the UK state and has caused additional tensions between ourselves and European countries. The inability to see this is symptomatic of the myopia that infects UK politics.

Do you honestly think the three sticking points would be any less stuck given (another) year of discussion?

 

[journolud]

...just as the same folk that think our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good and think we are a country without a fucking clue celebrate France doing the same.

Is that the France that aren’t seeking to leave the 27 member EU?

 

[BobKowalski]

Do you honestly think the three sticking points would be any less stuck given (another) year of discussion?

No.

What it would have done is given us an extra year to prepare, test systems etc., and businesses a chance to recover from Covid without imposing extra administrative burdens and costs.

When you are shipping water with one crisis, your starting point to solve the problem is not to add more water.

 

[BobKowalski]

...just as the same folk that think our national policy via Brexit is to solely promote our domestic self-interest irrespective of the wider good and think we are a country without a fucking clue celebrate France doing the same.

This only happens in your imagination. But then Brexit as a concept only works in people’s imaginations.

“All aboard the Unicorn and Sunlit Uplands Express. Toot! Toot!”

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

No.

What it would have done is given us an extra year to prepare, test systems etc., and businesses a chance to recover from Covid without imposing extra administrative burdens and costs.

When you are shipping water with one crisis, your starting point to solve the problem is not to add more water.

I personally think the three sticking points would be just as stuck. We've reached the natural end of negotiations - agreed on the stuff we can agree on and will have to part ways on the rest.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Is that the France that aren’t seeking to leave the 27 member EU?

No. They are seeking to access the waters of a non-Eu country. Slightly odd as I can't see a post-colonial equivalence elsewhere in the world.

 

[jaseirai]

I personally think the three sticking points would be just as stuck. We've reached the natural end of negotiations - agreed on the stuff we can agree on and will have to part ways on the rest.

The Spectator article concludes with

"That attitude of French politicians in assuming that the French interest and the European interest are the same is why it is no surprise that it is France rather than any other country that has attempted to blow up the talks. I suspect that to many Brexiteers, it will convince them that we were right to leave"

And paying a billion quid a month for the privilege of more pointless negotiations.

 

[blueinsa]

The Spectator article concludes with

"That attitude of French politicians in assuming that the French interest and the European interest are the same is why it is no surprise that it is France rather than any other country that has attempted to blow up the talks. I suspect that to many Brexiteers, it will convince them that we were right to leave"

And paying a billion quid a month for the privilege of more pointless negotiations.

It's exactly why I have always said the EU is France and Germany and the rest are along for the ride and it's exactly why I voted leave and would do so again tomorrow.