Another new Brexit thread

[Rascal]

How does the UK meet Benn's five tests? *

How did Dominic Cummings meet Benn's 5 tests? (Questions not tests.)

* In the case of the UK, the answer to the last of his questions, "How can we get rid of you?", seems to be "Vote for Brexit".

1. What power have you got? The power to put legislation to the House of Commons
2. Where did you get it from? The electorate
3. In whose interests do you exercise it? The people
4. To whom are you accountable? The electorate
5. How can we get rid of you? Vote you out.

I agree Cummings didn't meet any of the criteria and i would never defend him but his boss is the one who is accountable and should be voted out at the next election.

 

[BobKowalski]

Christ I post about the lack of leaks and boom....

Yeah, starting to spill out now. Call between UVL and Johnson had greater effect than first appreciated I guess. It did last an hour so must have had some substance.

 

[blueinsa]

Yeah, starting to spill out now. Call between UVL and Johnson had greater effect than first appreciated I guess. It did last an hour so must have had some substance.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

It's been fun listening to the rhetoric and posturing mind but it always had to come to an end at some point.

 

[BobKowalski]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

It's been fun listening to the rhetoric and posturing mind but it always had to come to an end at some point.

To do a deal or not was ultimately a political decision for the heads of Govt, seems political decisions have been made and compromises reached...assuming that it doesn‘t all go tits up at the last minute.

 

[blueinsa]

To do a deal or not was ultimately a political decision for the heads of Govt, seems political decisions have been made and compromises reached...assuming that it doesn‘t all go tits up at the last minute.

It was never going to be any different mate.

 

[BobKowalski]

It was never going to be any different mate.

Hope so...Peston reporting its all bollocks and nothing has changed. Make of it what you will.

 

[bluethrunthru]

‘BREAKING: the UK will be in a position to drop the offending clauses in the Internal Market + Finance Bills provided there's a "long term legal solution" to the outstanding issues around the NI Protocol, and that are "satisfactory to both sides" @rtenews

as I said - reported earlier by C4 News as being briefed to an FT journo.

 

[blueinsa]

Sky now reporting.

Brexit: 'Significant progress' in talks over fishing rights during trade negotiations - EU sources

But a UK government source tells Sky there has been "no breakthrough on fishing", adding: "Nothing new has been achieved today."

news.sky.com

 

[bluethrunthru]

Hope so...Peston reporting its all bollocks and nothing has changed. Make of it what you will.

Yep - you have to read all 3 tweets here - and remember Peston is pretty much a client journo for johnson



Pretty much confirmed by Johnsons other main client journo

 

[Summerbuzz]

Anything at this stage is, uhh, stage managed.

Think of it like a film. The ending for the story was worked out ages back. The players and dialogue for the last scene are chosen to go out and make it look good for all concerned.

 

[Vic]

1. What power have you got? The power to put legislation to the House of Commons
2. Where did you get it from? The electorate
3. In whose interests do you exercise it? The people
4. To whom are you accountable? The electorate
5. How can we get rid of you? Vote you out.

I agree Cummings didn't meet any of the criteria and i would never defend him but his boss is the one who is accountable and should be voted out at the next election.

That's not the UK. K = Kingdom.

Who are you thinking of that has power to put legislation to the Commons? It's not the UK.

Who has power to put legislation to the European Parliament? It's not the EU.

The EU is just an entity. It's the product of democratic process, not the source.

 

[mcfc1632]

How about when a hard deadline is set, most negotiations seem to come to a conclusion just before that deadline and the most movement from each side is concentrated in the last stages of that negotiation. Happens across the world in the public and private sector every day. Normally some kind of ‘threat’ is also associated to that deadline. There is very little new in how this negotiation Has played out so far.

Ha - but you are not repeating what the main Remainers have said on here for years

They have been saying that the EU will totally dominate the UK in these Negotiations and...

They have been saying that the UK will have to simply accept

It was in the face of this that I first expressed:

""We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

And you seem to be agreeing with that - also Ric and others - but the for years that view has been repeatedly derided - that is the truth

And - after the fuckwittery of May/Robbins for 3 years - 2020 has been a better outcome for the UK in these negotiations

Another reality is that all the UK citizens on this thread should welcome that fact.

The 'new' is that the EU have had to come to believe that the UK are not going to extend and that the UK might well leave anyway - after 2017-2019 - that is a very big NEW.

Also, it proves the point that I have been making - and only repeating because Remainers deride and refute that simple fact.

 

[Vic]

Hope so...Peston reporting its all bollocks and nothing has changed. Make of it what you will.

But then he's just leaked the UK government's secret assessments of the damage No Deal would do. (One theory - those estimates would not be a surprise to the EU, it's why they have played hardball because they know that we know how damaging No Deal would be to the UK; but when the deal is done, Johnson can tell the ERG ultras "how can you vote against it, now that is public knowledge?")

 

[BobKowalski]

Yep - you have to read all 3 tweets here - and remember Peston is pretty much a client journo for johnson



Pretty much confirmed by Johnsons other main client journo

Yeah. The positive news is coming from Europe based sources, negative reports from UK sources which suggests Johnson doesn’t want to scare the ERG mob until everything is in the bag.

 

[mcfc1632]

Is it because both sides have realised there is a need for some compromise in order to get a deal over the line?

Good - and after 3 years of the EU bossing May and Robbins and enjoying the sight of the UK jumping however high the EU asks, in 2020 they have come to the view that they have to make movement and particularly now because.........?

 

[journolud]

Ha - but you are not repeating what the main Remainers have said on here for years

They have been saying that the EU will totally dominate the UK in these Negotiations and...

They have been saying that the UK will have to simply accept

It was in the face of this that I first expressed:

""We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

And you seem to be agreeing with that - also Ric and others - but the for years that view has been repeatedly derided - that is the truth

And - after the fuckwittery of May/Robbins for 3 years - 2020 has been a better outcome for the UK in these negotiations

Another reality is that all the UK citizens on this thread should welcome that fact.

The 'new' is that the EU have had to come to believe that the UK are not going to extend and that the UK might well leave anyway - after 2017-2019 - that is a very big NEW.

Also, it proves the point that I have been making - and only repeating because Remainers deride and refute that simple fact.

You’re resolute I’ll give you that. But wrong

 

[Vic]

Hope so...Peston reporting its all bollocks and nothing has changed. Make of it what you will.

But then he's just leaked the UK government's secret assessments of the damage No Deal would do. (One theory - those estimates would not be a surprise to the EU, it's why they have played hardball because they know that we know how damaging No Deal would be to the UK; but when the deal is done, Johnson can tell the ERG ultras "how can you vote against it, now that is public knowledge?")

Ha - but you are not repeating what the main Remainers have said on here for years

They have been saying that the EU will totally dominate the UK in these Negotiations and...

They have been saying that the UK will have to simply accept

It was in the face of this that I first expressed:

""We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

And you seem to be agreeing with that - also Ric and others - but the for years that view has been repeatedly derided - that is the truth

And - after the fuckwittery of May/Robbins for 3 years - 2020 has been a better outcome for the UK in these negotiations

Another reality is that all the UK citizens on this thread should welcome that fact.

The 'new' is that the EU have had to come to believe that the UK are not going to extend and that the UK might well leave anyway - after 2017-2019 - that is a very big NEW.

Also, it proves the point that I have been making - and only repeating because Remainers deride and refute that simple fact.

From September 2019

Yep, there was some real bullshit last night, with the main Brexit bullshitters gloating that the Remainers have now said they’ll accept a deal. They’ve totally missed the fact that any deal acceptable to most Remainers would be unacceptable to most Leavers. There is no middle Brexit course acceptable to anything like a majority.

For new readers, it was dafter than that. They asked what compromise Remainers would accept, and unless you said you'd accept no compromise, you were branded a Leaver.

And I think we're still waiting for the post to justify...

"Even in recent days we have some of the main Remainers stating that the UK will simply have to suck it up

Shall I post some examples?"

 

[mcfc1632]

Tony was a democrat for a start, the EU does not meet his 5 tests

I do love Michael Foot.

I admit I came to this conclusion after a while, it is as you say impossible. It is also why I came to the conclusion that when we leave no deal is the best deal. I also acknowledge there is an element of risk attached to this because a Tory government is in power and i would have much preferred a Labour party to be in power when we left,

This confuses people, the Liberal left are not Socialists and as you quite rightly point they are totally different animals. Hence the huge divide in the Labour party at the moment.

I think that there are some on here that identify as left / socialist - but behave as liberal left

They have an identify crisis I suggest

 

[BobKowalski]

But then he's just leaked the UK government's secret assessments of the damage No Deal would do. (One theory - those estimates would not be a surprise to the EU, it's why they have played hardball because they know that we know how damaging No Deal would be to the UK; but when the deal is done, Johnson can tell the ERG ultras "how can you vote against it, now that is public knowledge?")

Pretty much. The other factor is that we are woefully unprepared for the customs changes which will come irrespective of whether there is a deal or not, so we will need cooperation at the borders from French, Dutch customs etc., which will be more forthcoming if there is a deal.

 

[mcfc1632]

The relative silence and lack of leaks is hopefully pointing to progress being made.

Good call

And - if your assertion of years that there will be a deal in the end proves to be the truth .......

Whatever concessions are made by the UK 'at the death' - it will be a more robust Brexit than ever seemed possible in 2017-2019

So all Leavers should celebrate that

IMO - Any attempt to paint it otherwise can logically only be Remainers not able to face up to the reality - or accept that they should have backed May's BRINO and not held out for cake and eat it