Another new Brexit thread

[mat]

 

[mcfc1632]

And I can’t imagine any other poster on this thread doing that can you?

It’s basically the whole thread - I’m right no I’m right. Anyone expecting any winner and a sporting concession is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Hey - I have seen myself as something of a balance / counter to the Remainer posters that act as if they are the founts of all knowledge - there are quite a few

It makes me smile that people, including @Ric, feel the need to single me out but not posters from the remain side

It just reinforces in my mind other opinions about this thread that I think that I have been generally right about

 

[mcfc1632]

This is probably the truest and most significant point in the article:

"For the previous 40 years, Britain had been a kind of leader of the opposition to the dominant bloc in Europe,
namely France and Germany combined."

It sums up the UKs failure in the EU to a tee.
France and Germany are not natural bed-fellows. Historically they are antagonists. Britain has a much longer tradition of alliance with Germany than France. Fear and desparation drove the French and the Germans together, yet for for 40 years the UK were unable to offer any real leadership in Europe to change the balance and the direction of travel.

Ultimately Britain failed in the EU, but it will fare worse outside.

To identify:

"For the previous 40 years, Britain had been a kind of leader of the opposition to the dominant bloc in Europe, namely France and Germany combined."

as - probably the truest and most significant point in the article - I view as a typical, if understandable, Remainer perspective

I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out the tensions that are emerging between Germany and France - and the causes of that - "the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five”

For me the major blindspot that I see from Remainers is that they only ever seem to look backwards rather than to the future of the EU and what will develop and how that will impact the UK.

So, whilst I can understand your preference to focus on the role that you feel the UK should have adopted decades ago for the good of the EU - I am more concerned about why those tensions are emerging between the 2 main players and where it is going to lead.

I mentioned that one of the main reasons that the UK absolutely must leave the EU for its long-term well-being is touched upon on in the article. Again - I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out:

"....Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe.

It is a surprise to me that issues like debt mutualisation never get raised on the Brexit thread - it is almost as if there is a reluctance to discuss where the EU is headed and what the UK will be sucked into if it was to Remain.

Debt mutualisation - Hmmm - a simple enough sounding phrase - but wow - what impact!! yet never considered on these threads - as the article comments:

"....All in all, it’s likely that Merkel will succeed in getting either a compromise or a postponement of the dispute in the interest of securing the benefits of the financial package. For that too is at risk from the opposition of the frugal four as well as from the enthusiasm of the European Parliament. Its president, David Sassoli, was instrumental in helping Germany to get the package passed in July, but he seemingly takes the view that debt mutualization will probably not be a one-off event linked to the pandemic but a permanent element of EU budgetary management. And what of the frugal four, who clearly oppose that drift? They’ll come to accept it."

Nothing in that development worth discussing?

Nobody any thoughts on what it would mean for a UK still in the EU a few years from now?

On a similar line - there has been no consideration on this thread of the EU acting to bake the much heralded EU Covid recovery fund into the MFF and making access to it dependent on signing up to 'more Europe' - how would that have affected the UK's response to Covid over the next 7 years?

For me, it is a Remainer trait to look exclusively backwards to a period of positivity

Personally, I tend to think the past is the past and it is what is likely to happen in the future that we should be thinking about as we contemplate decisions on - well the future

Best stop there - long posts get frowned upon

 

[jaseirai]

To identify:

"For the previous 40 years, Britain had been a kind of leader of the opposition to the dominant bloc in Europe, namely France and Germany combined."

as - probably the truest and most significant point in the article - I view as a typical, if understandable, Remainer perspective

I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out the tensions that are emerging between Germany and France - and the causes of that - "the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five”

For me the major blindspot that I see from Remainers is that they only ever seem to look backwards rather than to the future of the EU and what will develop and how that will impact the UK.

So, whilst I can understand your preference to focus on the role that you feel the UK should have adopted decades ago for the good of the EU - I am more concerned about why those tensions are emerging between the 2 main players and where it is going to lead.

I mentioned that one of the main reasons that the UK absolutely must leave the EU for its long-term well-being is touched upon on in the article. Again - I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out:

"....Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe.

It is a surprise to me that issues like debt mutualisation never get raised on the Brexit thread - it is almost as if there is a reluctance to discuss where the EU is headed and what the UK will be sucked into if it was to Remain.

Debt mutualisation - Hmmm - a simple enough sounding phrase - but wow - what impact!! yet never considered on these threads - as the article comments:

"....All in all, it’s likely that Merkel will succeed in getting either a compromise or a postponement of the dispute in the interest of securing the benefits of the financial package. For that too is at risk from the opposition of the frugal four as well as from the enthusiasm of the European Parliament. Its president, David Sassoli, was instrumental in helping Germany to get the package passed in July, but he seemingly takes the view that debt mutualization will probably not be a one-off event linked to the pandemic but a permanent element of EU budgetary management. And what of the frugal four, who clearly oppose that drift? They’ll come to accept it."

Nothing in that development worth discussing?

Nobody any thoughts on what it would mean for a UK still in the EU a few years from now?

On a similar line - there has been no consideration on this thread of the EU acting to bake the much heralded EU Covid recovery fund into the MFF and making access to it dependent on signing up to 'more Europe' - how would that have affected the UK's response to Covid over the next 7 years?

For me, it is a Remainer trait to look exclusively backwards to a period of positivity

Personally, I tend to think the past is the past and it is what is likely to happen in the future that we should be thinking about as we contemplate decisions on - well the future

Best stop there - long posts get frowned upon

No one seems to understand the implications of debt mutualisation. There's a musical they could go and endure if there's any theatres left that aren't insolvent.

 

[Saddleworth2]

To identify:

"For the previous 40 years, Britain had been a kind of leader of the opposition to the dominant bloc in Europe, namely France and Germany combined."

as - probably the truest and most significant point in the article - I view as a typical, if understandable, Remainer perspective

I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out the tensions that are emerging between Germany and France - and the causes of that - "the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five”

For me the major blindspot that I see from Remainers is that they only ever seem to look backwards rather than to the future of the EU and what will develop and how that will impact the UK.

So, whilst I can understand your preference to focus on the role that you feel the UK should have adopted decades ago for the good of the EU - I am more concerned about why those tensions are emerging between the 2 main players and where it is going to lead.

I mentioned that one of the main reasons that the UK absolutely must leave the EU for its long-term well-being is touched upon on in the article. Again - I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out:

"....Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe.

It is a surprise to me that issues like debt mutualisation never get raised on the Brexit thread - it is almost as if there is a reluctance to discuss where the EU is headed and what the UK will be sucked into if it was to Remain.

Debt mutualisation - Hmmm - a simple enough sounding phrase - but wow - what impact!! yet never considered on these threads - as the article comments:

"....All in all, it’s likely that Merkel will succeed in getting either a compromise or a postponement of the dispute in the interest of securing the benefits of the financial package. For that too is at risk from the opposition of the frugal four as well as from the enthusiasm of the European Parliament. Its president, David Sassoli, was instrumental in helping Germany to get the package passed in July, but he seemingly takes the view that debt mutualization will probably not be a one-off event linked to the pandemic but a permanent element of EU budgetary management. And what of the frugal four, who clearly oppose that drift? They’ll come to accept it."

Nothing in that development worth discussing?

Nobody any thoughts on what it would mean for a UK still in the EU a few years from now?

On a similar line - there has been no consideration on this thread of the EU acting to bake the much heralded EU Covid recovery fund into the MFF and making access to it dependent on signing up to 'more Europe' - how would that have affected the UK's response to Covid over the next 7 years?

For me, it is a Remainer trait to look exclusively backwards to a period of positivity

Personally, I tend to think the past is the past and it is what is likely to happen in the future that we should be thinking about as we contemplate decisions on - well the future

Best stop there - long posts get frowned upon

Having highlighted the arrogance behind the manner of your original post, you outdo yourself with this latest and simply confirm that I was 100% correct in my assessment.

Anyway, you have obviously dismissed the comments I made about the article as being to feeble to remember.

I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out the tensions that are emerging between Germany and France

‘No matter it described the factions and alliances as I understand them to be although in a union of 27 it is hardly surprising that tensions exist and are managed

For me the major blindspot that I see from Remainers is that they only ever seem to look backwards rather than to the future of the EU and what will develop and how that will impact the UK.

It points to a continued more fiscally integrated Euro zone but there is nothing particularly new in any of that.‘

To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe.

the biggest being the financial situation of the med countries and the EU's repeated juggling act of keeping their economies 'in the air' without dropping a ball.

 

[blueinsa]

Only idiots who put an outdated concept of sovereignty above ongoing prosperity will disagree.

Have you wondered why the EU is so vigorously defending its own outdated concept of sovereignty when it's not even a sovereign country?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

 

[peter.evans]

what’s an outdated concept of sovereignty?

If anything good is going to come out of this humongous shit show then more sovereignty is certainly it.

Yeah coz we were really struggling as members of the EU ! Are Germany France Italy etc sovereign nations as members ? I think they are.

 

[blueparrot]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

No relevance . But thanks anyway.

 

[peter.evans]

It was a sovereign choice we made. We made a sovereign choice to join a wider community and subscribe to a legal framework for the greater good.

We also made a sovereign choice to disengage from that community and legal framework. In both cases, the choice was ours to freely make. That is sovereignty.

Yes the EU elects our mps local mps, does the chancellor's budget, makes political party manifestos, rules of every organisation in the country, etc,etc ! Er wait a minute. But all the car manufacturers leaving, queues everywhere, food shortages, prices up, ecenomy tits up, etc will all be worth it !!

 

[journolud]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

What a sad and desperate post. Embarrassing

 

[Ancient Citizen]

It was a sovereign choice we made. We made a sovereign choice to join a wider community and subscribe to a legal framework for the greater good.

We also made a sovereign choice to disengage from that community and legal framework. In both cases, the choice was ours to freely make. That is sovereignty.

You're right, when we joined, we agreed to losing that sovereignty, by embracing a foreign legal framework, yet we're still being told that we haven't lost any whilst we were a member, it's probably been said a half dozen times in the last half dozen pages.
So finally, we can all agree that we did.
Which is probably the biggest reason, along with a reluctance to embrace federalism, and a realisation that we no longer had what we originally enjoyed, that we voted to leave.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No relevance . But thanks anyway.

You're welcome, it's great when we can do what we want isn't it?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

What a sad and desperate post. Embarrassing

I thought it was very good news actually, but if you're not bothered, hey-ho.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

You're right, when we joined, we agreed to losing that sovereignty, by embracing a foreign legal framework, yet we're still being told that we haven't lost any whilst we were a member, it's probably been said a half dozen times in the last half dozen pages.
So finally, we can all agree that we did.
Which is probably the biggest reason, along with a reluctance to embrace federalism, and a realisation that we no longer had what we originally enjoyed, that we voted to leave.

No. We voted to leave because idiots...

 

[Saddleworth2]

realisation that we no longer had what we originally enjoyed,

What was that then mate?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Yeah coz we were really struggling as members of the EU ! Are Germany France Italy etc sovereign nations as members ? I think they are.

European Communities act.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No. We voted to leave because idiots...insist on paying to buy and sell stuff.

As trite comments are in vogue...

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

The UK is the angry shortarse at the bar who's always looking for a fight. The rest of the world takes the piss out of the raging dwarf and knows they can put their hand on his head to stop the annoying **** swinging at them.

Newsflash:

The Empire ended long ago. Accept who we are in the world and act accordingly.

We could follow a social democratic model of scandanavia or become an Atlantic version of Indian inequality. I know which ones the Tories want us to be and so no deal is favourable to put us plebs in our place.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

What was that then mate?

Just explained it mate, well some of it, as Bob said, we agreed to join by sacrificing part of our sovereignty, that and not being part of a federation, etc etc; etc;