Another new Brexit thread

[journolud]

I thought it was very good news actually, but if you're not bothered, hey-ho.

It's great news that we have started COVID vaccinations and I'm sure people are all over it in, hmm, the COVID thread. It's not relevant to Brexit as you well know but if you want to make a cheap point about something the implications of which are people in the EU are in danger of catching a fatal disease longer than we are, well, hey-ho as they say.

 

[blueparrot]

You're welcome, it's great when we can do what we want isn't it?

As we always could. Question you need to ask is will supplies from Belgium be interrupted,in 3 weeks. I'm hoping not, but that's the question.

 

[Rascal]

You're right, when we joined, we agreed to losing that sovereignty, by embracing a foreign legal framework, yet we're still being told that we haven't lost any whilst we were a member, it's probably been said a half dozen times in the last half dozen pages.
So finally, we can all agree that we did.
Which is probably the biggest reason, along with a reluctance to embrace federalism, and a realisation that we no longer had what we originally enjoyed, that we voted to leave.

I think it is important to note, we didn't lose sovereignty we pooled sovereignty.

We have always been able to make sovereign decisions, but some of our sovereignty was pooled for what was supposedly the greater good. It was our sovereign decision to go to war with Iraq, we could have made the sovereign decision to limit immigration. What the nation failed to do was use the sovereignty it controlled and blame the EU for taking that sovereignty away from the UK.

UK sovereignty is also difficult to define as we have an unwritten constitution and as a result it constantly evolves. One thing that has come out of leaving the EU is that we probably do need a written constitution that is fit for purpose as Sovereignty can be seen as the right of a state to govern itself and make its own laws. Parliamentary sovereignty is strange, in many countries parliaments are constrained by written constitutions and a constitutional court, which can review and annul laws that conflict with the constitution. Parliamentary sovereignty was complicated by us being in the EU, as it constrained some decisions made by Parliament owing to the primacy of EU law; those constraints were entered into by Parliamentry sovereign choice. The fact that the UK left the EU shows that parliamentary sovereignty remained. Outside of the EU, the UK is still constrained by international agreements, such as membership of the WTO,NATO so if you are arguing that leaving the EU gives us sovereignty back, it doesn't, it changes it that is all and Parliament remains sovereign.

 

[yerwot?]

View attachment 6346

the Indian model with a dash of Zimbabwe and the confederate states that were so heavily backed in the civil war....

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think it is important to note, we didn't lose sovereignty we pooled sovereignty.

We have always been able to make sovereign decisions, but some of our sovereignty was pooled for what was supposedly the greater good. It was our sovereign decision to go to war with Iraq, we could have made the sovereign decision to limit immigration. What the nation failed to do was use the sovereignty it controlled and blame the EU for taking that sovereignty away from the UK.

UK sovereignty is also difficult to define as we have an unwritten constitution and as a result it constantly evolves. One thing that has come out of leaving the EU is that we probably do need a written constitution that is fit for purpose as Sovereignty can be seen as the right of a state to govern itself and make its own laws. Parliamentary sovereignty is strange, in many countries parliaments are constrained by written constitutions and a constitutional court, which can review and annul laws that conflict with the constitution. Parliamentary sovereignty was complicated by us being in the EU, as it constrained some decisions made by Parliament owing to the primacy of EU law; those constraints were entered into by Parliamentry sovereign choice. The fact that the UK left the EU shows that parliamentary sovereignty remained. Outside of the EU, the UK is still constrained by international agreements, such as membership of the WTO,NATO so if you are arguing that leaving the EU gives us sovereignty back, it doesn't, it changes it that is all and Parliament remains sovereign.

No matter how many times its explained......

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

We started early by using the Eu legislation currently in place .. not our own. In fact we went early because you and me (through our taxes) agreed to underwrite any problems and fallout from the vaccine. (some of which are believed to be infertility in women and erectile dysfunction in men)

How vaccine approval compares between the UK, Europe and the US

Analysis: The regulatory fast-tracking of the Covid vaccine in Britain by MHRA has led some to question its methods

www.theguardian.com

The Eu and the USA have both said that we have 'gone too early' and should have either tested more or waited on further results. Even Fauci described the Regulatory Agency (MHRA) as having run “around the corner of the marathon and joined it in the last mile and rushed through that approval'' before rowing it back.

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

uk.reuters.com

 

[Len Rum]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

Developed in the EU.
Made in the EU ( by an American company).
You're best waiting for the AZ vaccine before indulging in your Vaccine nationalism.
Otherwise you just look a bit silly.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No matter how many times its explained......

....It always reverts back to the fact that parliament was constrained by EU laws, as per the post by Rascal.

 

[Saddleworth2]

....It always reverts back to the fact that parliament was constrained by EU laws, as per the post by Rascal.

can you name a EU law that constrained us against our will?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

View attachment 6346

Lol - no diagram for the world according to the EU? It seems to have gone over your head that brexit is about the whole map being yellow, not the myopic 27 nation view of the world with the EU as its centre. This strange and toxic combination of little England mentality combined with a sort of EU related Stockholm syndrome totally misses the point of leaving the EU.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Lol - no diagram for the world according to the EU? It seems to have gone over your head that brexit is about the whole map being yellow, not the myopic 27 nation view of the world with the EU as its centre. This strange and toxic combination of little England mentality combined with a sort of EU related Stockholm syndrome totally misses the point of leaving the EU.

What was that again mate.
Asking for a friend.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

What was that again mate.
Asking for a friend.

Lol - no diagram for the world according to the EU? It seems to have gone over your head that brexit is about the whole map being yellow, not the myopic 27 nation view of the world with the EU as its centre. This strange and toxic combination of little England mentality combined with a sort of EU related Stockholm syndrome totally misses the point of leaving the EU.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

can you name a EU law that constrained us against our will?

We are not constrained by EU laws, instead they are called regulations.

 

[peter.evans]

It's great news that we have started COVID vaccinations and I'm sure people are all over it in, hmm, the COVID thread. It's not relevant to Brexit as you well know but if you want to make a cheap point about something the implications of which are people in the EU are in danger of catching a fatal disease longer than we are, well, hey-ho as they say.

And is the worst economic performance and death levels in europe brexit thread related as we have those too !

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

....It always reverts back to the fact that parliament was constrained by EU laws, as per the post by Rascal.

Every Eu law passed was debated on and voted on by our representative MEPs. Im sure that there are some UK laws that you don't agree with but abide by because they became law of the land.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Parliamentary sovereignty was complicated by us being in the EU, as it constrained some decisions made by Parliament owing to the primacy of EU law;

We are now free of these constraints.

those constraints were entered into by Parliamentry sovereign choice. The fact that the UK left the EU shows that parliamentary sovereignty remained.

Indeed they were, admirably explained by Bob, we have now decided to exercise our right to quit, due in part to what you say above.

Outside of the EU, the UK is still constrained by international agreements, such as membership of the WTO,NATO so if you are arguing that leaving the EU gives us sovereignty back, it doesn't, it changes it that is all and Parliament remains sovereign.

Outside the EU, any deals done are done by parliamentary consent, inside the EU we cannot enter into trade deals without their consent. We voted to join the Common Market 40 odd years ago, things changed and it became a different entity, and here we are.

 

[Vic]

what’s an outdated concept of sovereignty?

If anything good is going to come out of this humongous shit show then more sovereignty is certainly it.

You can't have more sovereignty. Either you're a sovereign nation or you're not. What's outdated is the idea that alliances (whether military, economic, or even shared governance) take away sovereignty. Actually that may be a newfangled idea of sovereignty - that joining with others is somehow bad.

(Sorry, just seen Bob's similar response. No collusion, no WhatsApp, just great minds...)

 

[Saddleworth2]

We are not constrained by EU laws, instead they are called regulations.

Ok. I'll take that as a 'no' from you mate.

 

[Vic]

To identify:

"For the previous 40 years, Britain had been a kind of leader of the opposition to the dominant bloc in Europe, namely France and Germany combined."

as - probably the truest and most significant point in the article - I view as a typical, if understandable, Remainer perspective

I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out the tensions that are emerging between Germany and France - and the causes of that - "the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five”

For me the major blindspot that I see from Remainers is that they only ever seem to look backwards rather than to the future of the EU and what will develop and how that will impact the UK.

So, whilst I can understand your preference to focus on the role that you feel the UK should have adopted decades ago for the good of the EU - I am more concerned about why those tensions are emerging between the 2 main players and where it is going to lead.

I mentioned that one of the main reasons that the UK absolutely must leave the EU for its long-term well-being is touched upon on in the article. Again - I should be shocked - but I am not - that no poster picked out:

"....Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe.

It is a surprise to me that issues like debt mutualisation never get raised on the Brexit thread - it is almost as if there is a reluctance to discuss where the EU is headed and what the UK will be sucked into if it was to Remain.

Debt mutualisation - Hmmm - a simple enough sounding phrase - but wow - what impact!! yet never considered on these threads - as the article comments:

"....All in all, it’s likely that Merkel will succeed in getting either a compromise or a postponement of the dispute in the interest of securing the benefits of the financial package. For that too is at risk from the opposition of the frugal four as well as from the enthusiasm of the European Parliament. Its president, David Sassoli, was instrumental in helping Germany to get the package passed in July, but he seemingly takes the view that debt mutualization will probably not be a one-off event linked to the pandemic but a permanent element of EU budgetary management. And what of the frugal four, who clearly oppose that drift? They’ll come to accept it."

Nothing in that development worth discussing?

Nobody any thoughts on what it would mean for a UK still in the EU a few years from now?

On a similar line - there has been no consideration on this thread of the EU acting to bake the much heralded EU Covid recovery fund into the MFF and making access to it dependent on signing up to 'more Europe' - how would that have affected the UK's response to Covid over the next 7 years?

For me, it is a Remainer trait to look exclusively backwards to a period of positivity

Personally, I tend to think the past is the past and it is what is likely to happen in the future that we should be thinking about as we contemplate decisions on - well the future

Best stop there - long posts get frowned upon

What long post?

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Outside the EU, any deals done are done by parliamentary consent, inside the EU we cannot enter into trade deals without their consent. We voted to join the Common Market 40 odd years ago, things changed and it became a different entity, and here we are.

I think that you are forgetting that any trade deals going forward will not be done by parliamentary consent as your precious Tories have denied the right of scrutiny to MPs. No doubt this is to ensure that their mates get first bite of the cherry .