Another new Brexit thread

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inbetween said:
The Labour fellas arguing on here don't like to tell you that half of Corbyn's manifesto last year was completely impossible to implement because much of it broke EU state aid rules.

This is why Corbyn and the socialists generally are against the EU. They see it as a bureaucratic representation of capitalism but this is often accepted as a necessary evil because of the large socio-democratic make up of the EU.
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*coughs
 
jaseirai said:
No one seems to understand the implications of debt mutualisation. There's a musical they could go and endure if there's any theatres left that aren't insolvent.
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Is that where all the debt gets put in a central pot and then each region has to pay an annual interest charge that increases year in year even if that region wasn’t responsible for the majority of that debt in the first place?
Seems fair enough. We could call it something snazzy like the ‘Barnett Formulae’
Oh wait...
 
journolud said:
Lol, was just a bit of sarcastic banter mate but now that you mention it, do you think your neighbour represents the majority view?

You don’t know any Romanians I can ask do you?
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What Cyprus and Greece wants and needs is allies when dealing with Turkey. There is talk, led by France, of imposing sanctions on Turkey, albeit Germany is reluctant. It‘s on the agenda for this week’s summit.

Leaving the EU would get Cyprus precisely no where as it would remove what leverage they have in getting the bloc to weigh in against Turkey.

Ironically, France apart, Turkey has gone back to saying nice things about Europe and how much Turkey is part of Europe because its economy is in the crapper and if Germany uses its economic heft, it’s going to sink without trace. US Congress is applying sanctions to Turkey on buying Russian arms (which turned out to be useless) and under Biden, further economic sanctions are likely.

Germany’s calculation is that Turkey having an economic meltdown will create more problems then it solves.

In short, no easy answers given Erdogan is still an unhinged lunatic, but as we know ‘easy answers‘ are what people demand these days.
 
Rascal said:
In a truly representative democracy i would argue age should not be a barrier to voting, even if that vote is done by proxy on their behalf as they have to live with the mess the grown ups create
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You realise how that concept would be heavily, heavily misused and open to corruption, right?

Parents already vote on behalf of their children.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Is that where all the debt gets put in a central pot and then each region has to pay an annual interest charge that increases year in year even if that region wasn’t responsible for the majority of that debt in the first place?
Seems fair enough. We could call it something snazzy like the ‘Barnett Formulae’
Oh wait...
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It’s the price we pay in order to avoid a failed state which signs up to the belt and road ‘initiative’ on these islands.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Is that where all the debt gets put in a central pot and then each region has to pay an annual interest charge that increases year in year even if that region wasn’t responsible for the majority of that debt in the first place?
Seems fair enough. We could call it something snazzy like the ‘Barnett Formulae’
Oh wait...
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You see... those similarities keep popping up, don't they!

But you still approve of one action and condemn the other... I don't get it.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
You see... those similarities keep popping up, don't they!

But you still approve of one action and condemn the other... I don't get it.
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Just like approving Brexit but saying independence for Scotland is stupid. Not that you have said that pal. Plenty have and do though.

just to repeat my simple and honestly held view: i would like Scotland to be part of the EU rather than the U.K. , to achieve that, we need independence from the U.K. so that we can use our sovereign choice to rejoin. Membership of a Union requires pooling of sovereignty and a degree of integration both politically and fiscally. Not inconsistent, not hypocritical. A choice between two unions.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Just like approving Brexit but saying independence for Scotland is stupid. Not that you have said that pal. Plenty have and do though.

just to repeat my simple and honestly held view: i would like Scotland to be part of the EU rather than the U.K. , to achieve that, we need independence from the U.K. so that we can use our sovereign choice to rejoin. Membership of a Union requires pooling of sovereignty and a degree of integration both politically and fiscally. Not inconsistent, not hypocritical. A choice between two unions.
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To me I was happy as a member of both,now I have to make a choice. Either the UK or the EU. Unless there is a surprise down the road,I'll be choosing the EU,same choice I made in the first Scottish referendum,and the EU referendum, so consistent all the way through. I'd rather have not had to make a choice though.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Just like approving Brexit but saying independence for Scotland is stupid. Not that you have said that pal. Plenty have and do though.

just to repeat my simple and honestly held view: i would like Scotland to be part of the EU rather than the U.K. , to achieve that, we need independence from the U.K. so that we can use our sovereign choice to rejoin. Membership of a Union requires pooling of sovereignty and a degree of integration both politically and fiscally. Not inconsistent, not hypocritical. A choice between two unions.
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Correct, I have not. I have no dog in the fight about Scottish Independence, as I have no personal affinities to the connection of the culture.

I don't class myself as 'British' as I genuinely don't know what the term is meant to imply other than a reference to the Acts of Union. I've always considered myself English if anything.

If that's what you want for Scotland, that is fine. It is a reasonable and logical request. You'll have many detractors, those sayong how Scotland will struggle on it's own and they are fair to give their analysis of the situation and all potential hardships that may or may not occur. Both opinions are reasonable to hold.

But what I would never ever do to someone else, is tell them that they have been 'misled', made the 'wrong decision', don't know what you're voting for, have ignored the opinions of others, and other more heinous accusations which I think you know what they are.

Not saying you've done this, but hopefully you can 'empathise' with how many leave voters have felt, many of us voting for the exact same motivations and reasons that you probably have in regards to Scotland's current and future relationship with the UK/EU.

We made a choice of which union we preferred and went with our own over the EU (as did 1m Scottish citizens, in case anyone forgot). This is why I was asking that, as an Indyref advocate like yourself, you can empathise with the wave of unfair and innaccurate criticisms as to how and why many of us came to the decision that we did.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Correct, I have not. I have no dog in the fight about Scottish Independence, as I have no personal affinities to the connection of the culture.

I don't class myself as 'British' as I genuinely don't know what the term is meant to imply other than a reference to the Acts of Union. I've always considered myself English if anything.

If that's what you want for Scotland, that is fine. It is a reasonable and logical request. You'll have many detractors, those sayong how Scotland will struggle on it's own and they are fair to give their analysis of the situation and all potential hardships that may or may not occur. Both opinions are reasonable to hold.

But what I would never ever do to someone else, is tell them that they have been 'misled', made the 'wrong decision', don't know what you're voting for, have ignored the opinions of others, and other more heinous accusations which I think you know what they are.

Not saying you've done this, but hopefully you can 'empathise' with how many leave voters have felt, many of us voting for the exact same motivations and reasons that you probably have in regards to Scotland's current and future relationship with the UK/EU.

We made a choice of which union we preferred and went with our own. This is why I was asking that, as an Indyref advocate like yourself, you can empathise with the wave of unfair and innaccurate criticisms as to how and why many of us came to the decision that we did.
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I answered earlier and have been totally consistent in my assessment. I can understand anyone that abhors further fiscal and/or political integration with the EU to vote for leaving it. I would not be critical of anyone that holds that as a primary reason to leave. Calling anyone stupid for holding a belief has only one result in my experience and that is to strengthen the others resolve.

all the other stuff like ability to trade with the rest of the world i struggle with. I also strongly believe that the U.K. had stronger influence within the EU than Scotland does within the U.K. if that were different I might hold a different view but Brexit has proven it to be the case.
 
Len Rum said:
Might have had something to do with the election of 'Irish' Joe.
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That certainly didn’t help, but we should never have dreamt them up to begin with, it was banana republic level shite. That Tory MPs even voted for them demonstrated how unfit they are.

Equally, that Tories in the Lords, even Brexiteers, crapped on them in no uncertain terms was to their credit.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Correct, I have not. I have no dog in the fight about Scottish Independence, as I have no personal affinities to the connection of the culture.

I don't class myself as 'British' as I genuinely don't know what the term is meant to imply other than a reference to the Acts of Union. I've always considered myself English if anything.

If that's what you want for Scotland, that is fine. It is a reasonable and logical request. You'll have many detractors, those sayong how Scotland will struggle on it's own and they are fair to give their analysis of the situation and all potential hardships that may or may not occur. Both opinions are reasonable to hold.

But what I would never ever do to someone else, is tell them that they have been 'misled', made the 'wrong decision', don't know what you're voting for, have ignored the opinions of others, and other more heinous accusations which I think you know what they are.

Not saying you've done this, but hopefully you can 'empathise' with how many leave voters have felt, many of us voting for the exact same motivations and reasons that you probably have in regards to Scotland's current and future relationship with the UK/EU.

We made a choice of which union we preferred and went with our own over the EU (as did 1m Scottish citizens, in case anyone forgot). This is why I was asking that, as an Indyref advocate like yourself, you can empathise with the wave of unfair and innaccurate criticisms as to how and why many of us came to the decision that we did.
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I’ve stated in the Scottish thread that I don’t find the position of Saddleworth, Coatigan, Blueparrot, Magicpole and others (apologies to any I’ve left out) in anyway hypocritical.
I find their train of thought in the unfolding of events logical.

I also pointed out in there, much like you have in here, that as there are several nuances that influenced people to vote Tory and Brexit in the Brexit elections and referendum, so also are there many reasons for people who are not lefty nationalists to vote SNP in Scotland.

I find your post a very fair summation. I find it refreshing, your admittance to bewilderment at the meaning of British. I’m Irish so assumed it was something that I would just not get, but I’ve asked the question of British people several times and never got what I considered a satisfactory answer.

You’re English. That’s fine. Own it.

I always considered British, something Irish and Scottish people get called when they did something good like winning a medal, otherwise they were still Scottish or Irish (NI).

As I said. Whatever you’re personal beliefs, I find your post to Saddleworth fair.
 
BobKowalski said:
More bingo...

‘The UK drops all its 'law breaking' clauses - including plans for more in forthcoming taxation deal on terms of implementing Northern Irish Protocol.’ @FT

www.gov.uk

Joint statement by the co-chairs of the EU-UK Joint Committee

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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What a pathetic saga this has been. Get all the flak for doing it - get MPs and ministers on telly excusing the government for doing it. Realise it is not at all helpful in the negotiation and then withdraw it. Absolutely pathetic behaviour from the Tories.

The reality has been the same for months - they have zero option but to do a deal. They will no doubt play it out for maximum drama and to minimise the scrutiny but at the latest possible minute they will do a deal. Even if that means going into January to do it they will do a deal.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I’ve stated in the Scottish thread that I don’t find the position of Saddleworth, Coatigan, Blueparrot, Magicpole and others (apologies to any I’ve left out) in anyway hypocritical.
I find their train of thought in the unfolding of events logical.

I also pointed out in there, much like you have in here, that as there are several nuances that influenced people to vote Tory and Brexit in the Brexit elections and referendum, so also are there many reasons for people who are not lefty nationalists to vote SNP in Scotland.

I find your post a very fair summation. I find it refreshing, your admittance to bewilderment at the meaning of British. I’m Irish so assumed it was something that I would just not get, but I’ve asked the question of British people several times and never got what I considered a satisfactory answer.

You’re English. That’s fine. Own it.

I always considered British, something Irish and Scottish people get called when they did something good like winning a medal, otherwise they were still Scottish or Irish (NI).

As I said. Whatever you’re personal beliefs, I find your post to Saddleworth fair.
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It mostly stems from the irritance of the "you all voted brexit because you all hate mimmigrants!" line that is oft totted out. I imagine it would be equally as ignorant and irritating to Scottish citizens should Scotland gain independence from the UK and being told "you all only voted to leave the UK because you all hate the English!" Just like brexit, it trivialises the reasons by claiming it was a decision of ignorance and hatred and it's often not the case.

My premise has always been that the purpose of Government/Parliament is to enact the will of it's people. It's why the line in the GFA about how should the people of NI determine an express desire to reunify with Ireland the UK Government will not stand in the way of it. (which is also why I was so surprised and disgusted at the actions of 'my' own Parliamentarians regarding brexit in recent years.)

I'm the same when it comes to Irish/Northern Ireland and the topic of reunification. How people identify themselves and see themselves, be it whatever identity they choose to focus on; sexual, gender, nationality etc is no concern of mine so long as it IS their decision and not one forced upon them by others and badgered to willingly accept using coercion or most of the times these days, shaming tactics.

I wasn't born when England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland unified to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (to refer to it at it's most collective form) just as I wasn't when the nation was asked about EEC membership or when we co-signed the EU into existance. My view is that once people collectively feel that a union has lost its relevance or has lost the support of the people, its continuance should be questioned. Same in regards to wishing to reform it. Politicians are still far too controlling in my view, but we're chipping away at it, slowly.
 
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