Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You can be well educated and thick. The government is full of them. Don't forget the Tories were historically opposed to education for the masses and extending the franchise to the educated masses.

I have gone off democracy a bit. After Trump and Brexit the idea of benevolent dictatorship has some appeal. Either that or a system that doesn't give disproportionate power to a minority, and rely on an unelected chamber for checks and balances. Actually, the Italian bureaucrats did ok, and Belgian civil servants managed for ages without a government.

Gosh - how bad does a government have to be before (misquoting Churchill) democracy isn't the worst form of government except all others?

Had remain won the referendum do you think you would still feel this way? Surely if you gave disproportionate power to a minority brexit could be stopped in its tracks?

 

[meltonblue]

A lot of the problem stems from giving thick people a vote. Surely if just the better educated were allowed one we wouldn't be in this mess and would be assured of a better and more democratic outcome?

To be fair, that’s why we have a parliament. Normally we vote for a manifesto. The challenge we’ve had since before the referendum is that neither of the main parties have had a fully aligned position within themselves, there’s factions in both of them.

 

[Saddleworth2]

You can be well educated and thick. The government is full of them. Don't forget the Tories were historically opposed to education for the masses and extending the franchise to the educated masses.

I have gone off democracy a bit. After Trump and Brexit the idea of benevolent dictatorship has some appeal. Either that or a system that doesn't give disproportionate power to a minority, and rely on an unelected chamber for checks and balances. Actually, the Italian bureaucrats did ok, and Belgian civil servants managed for ages without a government.

Gosh - how bad does a government have to be before (misquoting Churchill) democracy isn't the worst form of government except all others?

Democracy is a bit like fan owned clubs. Give me a benign dictator like HRH any day of the week.

 

[BobKowalski]

Given that a critisism of voting for brexit is that it is often described as an act of wilful self-harm I find it a bit strange that you would actively wish for the worst possible outcome for the country you live in just so you can be 'right' and describe this as 'fun'. It's a little like a flat earther hoping their ship falls off the edge of earth and into space just to prove their point. I actually hope for the best for both the UK and the EU, but at least you are not afraid to be honest I suppose.

Because I didn‘t vote for it, don’t own it, nor care if it’s a total fuck up. People want to vote for stupid then stupid is what you get.

So far we have ceded NI to the EU economic writ, put in place an internal customs border, pissed off the other devolved nations in our own Union and alienated European leaders closest to us.

Great job. Well done. Build another lorry park. Knock yourselves out.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Democracy is a bit like fan owned clubs. Give me a benign dictator like HRH any day of the week.

Your Scottish - you already have a constitutional monarch (HRH) so stop moaning ;-)

 

[Metal Biker]

100,000 lemmings can't be wrong, can they?

;-)

Especially since Lemmings don't actually throw themselves off cliffs.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

To be fair, that’s why we have a parliament. Normally we vote for a manifesto. The challenge we’ve had since before the referendum is that neither of the main parties have had a fully aligned position within themselves, there’s factions in both of them.

Absolutely. Brexit is a toxic issue in this sense - political kryptonite for both main parties.

 

[Metal Biker]

I think the more telling argument other than bobs hope for misery so he can say he was right on a football forum

is if he believes brexit is going to be a total shit show and really bad for the uk and it’s citizens and businesses ...

why is it that the major sticking point in the negotiations is that the EU are insisting on us mirroring there own reg and regulations and restricting our state aid And we must have a level playing field Because they don’t want the uk to have a competitive advantage offer the eu on its doorstep.

what are the eu so scared off? If we are going to be fucked and a basket case why the need to restrict us? The truth is they don’t want the uk to succeed and fear it will do so hence this sticking point.

anyway I have given up posting on this thread as it’s boring but I do find this paradox interesting.

This is how friends treat friends after a disagreement!

This is what it's like just trying to get a deal. Imagine how it's been these past 40 years as a member!? The UK and EU simply cannot agree and never have agreed; we have both always held different views on a number of issues, and as soon as the bloc became political our partnership was doomed.

 

[meltonblue]

I think the more telling argument other than bobs hope for misery so he can say he was right on a football forum

is if he believes brexit is going to be a total shit show and really bad for the uk and it’s citizens and businesses ...

why is it that the major sticking point in the negotiations is that the EU are insisting on us mirroring there own reg and regulations and restricting our state aid And we must have a level playing field Because they don’t want the uk to have a competitive advantage offer the eu on its doorstep.

what are the eu so scared off? If we are going to be fucked and a basket case why the need to restrict us? The truth is they don’t want the uk to succeed and fear it will do so hence this sticking point.

anyway I have given up posting on this thread as it’s boring but I do find this paradox interesting.

Ultimately, it’s a trade deal, they’re not going to sign up to one where the opposite party can then change their regulations without recompense.

I can’t think of a single trade deal, even the one we’ve signed recently with Japan, that doesn’t include level playing field or state aid stipulations.

 

[jaseirai]

You can be well educated and thick. The government is full of them. Don't forget the Tories were historically opposed to education for the masses and extending the franchise to the educated masses.

I have gone off democracy a bit. After Trump and Brexit the idea of benevolent dictatorship has some appeal. Either that or a system that doesn't give disproportionate power to a minority, and rely on an unelected chamber for checks and balances. Actually, the Italian bureaucrats did ok, and Belgian civil servants managed for ages without a government.

Gosh - how bad does a government have to be before (misquoting Churchill) democracy isn't the worst form of government except all others?

We’re not that keen on dictatorship of the proletariat in this country

 

[Metal Biker]

I find it marvellous that in regards to things like COVID-19 response, lockdown, inequality issues, climate change, etc it's the Government who are seen as being at fault and responsible, yet as to how the negotiations on the trade deal have progressed, it's all "own it brexiters!" :)

 

[GBrannan]

Yep. Though tbh i've always felt that 99.9999% of us were just not qualified or educated enough to vote on an issue as complicated as this at all. I think Cameron's government were genuinely criminal putting this to the public. I consider myself an intelligent person, but of course I'm not an expert on the wide reaching economic and geopolitical effects that leaving the EU would have. Hardly any of us are! Especially back then! Anyone says otherwise is either genuinely in the 0.0001% (if it's even that) or just a fucking liar.

Of course it was too complicated an issue to be sold to the public intelligently, so it was just boiled down to 'do u want money to go to foriners or to british hospitals', a big fat lie of course, and dressed up in not-even-subtle racist undertones. For better or for worse, these sort of decisions should always be left to the elected government, or at least those with actual understanding of potential effects. It's like us voting on the next step a surgeon should take ffs. Still angry thinking about it.

This is a pretty good summary. The implications of Brexit were too nuanced to truly understand how picking the UK apart from the EU was really going to play out so they boiled it down to some key headlines that have proven to not be entirely true, to put it as positively as possible.

I think though for many people, particularly in deprived areas of the UK, the Brexit vote was an option for perceived change. Many of these areas, particularly outside the south east have seen little investment and industries that once thrived were no longer around or just a shadow of what they were. So for many, even though much of the reason for the state of these areas was due to multiple UK Governments not funding stuff properly due to skewed formulas made to favour investment in the south east, it probably came down to, ‘do I vote for more of the same as what I’ve got, which is pretty shite, or do I believe the rhetoric and vote for something that sounds far better. What have I got to lose?’

Really, if we were ever going to vote for this we should’ve been voting on whatever deal Brexit ultimately is. At least then you could say these are the downsides, these are the upsides. Before, for many, there were no perceived down sides because the argument to remain was so poorly executed that it was basically ‘you’re voting for more of the same’. Enough people just weren’t educated to even a basic level as to what being in the EU meant.

If there was another vote based on what people now understand and the broad brush strokes of what a deal looks like, I still think it’d be close but it’d probably be a reversed outcome on similar percentages.

 

[bugsyblue]

The biggest, most stupid thing the British public ever did is still rumbling on I see.

 

[stonerblue]

Nope, because none of that was my motivation, as you well know, Mr "Ignore-my-posts-if-they-bore-you"

Do you really believe that 99.99% of the population admits to reading every single political party manifesto before making their choice? If not I guess those people should be ineligible to vote eh? What elitist crap! XD

Not sure why you think i would know your motivation.
And if, as you said the other day, my post bore you why the fuck do you read and reply?
elitist my arse.

 

[Metal Biker]

The biggest, most stupid thing the British public ever did is still rumbling on I see.

I don't think this thread is THAT well known outside of Bluemoon, to be fair.

 

[meltonblue]

I find it marvellous that in regards to things like COVID-19 response, lockdown, inequality issues, climate change, etc it's the Government who are seen as being at fault and responsible, yet as to how the negotiations on the trade deal have progressed, it's all "own it brexiters!" :)

As much as I blame anyone that voted for the conservatives for the actions of a conservative government, it would be a bit of a stretch to blame them for a post election pandemic. There’s been no opportunity to influence that.

 

[Metal Biker]

Not sure why you think i would know your motivation.
And if, as you said the other day, my post bore you why the fuck do you read and reply?
elitist my arse.

Because i've been asked to explain it mutliple times (and by you yourself on occasion) and have done clearly?

Do you ever read this thread before posting?

 

[Metal Biker]

As much as I blame anyone that voted for the conservatives for the actions of a conservative government, it would be a bit of a stretch to blame them for a post election pandemic. There’s been no opportunity to influence that.

Just as the public had no influence over the negotiations and how they've been concluded since January 2020. The public tasked the next Government to "get a deal", they've (seemingly) failed.

"It's all the publics fault!"

 

[domalino]

The biggest, most stupid thing the British public ever did is still rumbling on I see.

It's going to rumble on for at least 15 years.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It's going to rumble on for at least 15 years.

50 until we see any benefits apparently.