Another new Brexit thread

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Eurasia Group reporting on the new Fish offer from UK. The 5 refers to years new deal is phased in. UK started at 80 and 3.

No way 35 & 5 is gonna fly for France. If I was Macron I'd just sit pretty & let pressure build on UK. Not clear EU has to/will move much now. 30 & 6 perhaps more credible with more on LPF too. Most imp thing is it's moving’
 
I do hope the EU string him along until the 30th Dec and then turn all the phones off so the 31st is just fucking panic for him - play him at his own game of brinksmanship

They are already using the hard deadline to squeeze us. Shutting down travel and substantial proportion of freight, international deliveries (DHL, EU Postal Service) suspended, M20 shut tonight, is just adding to the pressure.

Never fight a war on two fronts and all that.
 
Apparently, France's main Toyota plant has stopped production as components don't arrive from UK. Covid to blame now, but Brexit over time, will lead to supply chain reconfiguration that bypasses the UK in my opinion.

The experience of Covid will lead to chains being within the EU or at least those countries within the EU economic zone thereby allowing greater control.
 
Apparently, France's main Toyota plant has stopped production as components don't arrive from UK. Covid to blame now, but Brexit over time, will lead to supply chain reconfiguration that bypasses the UK in my opinion.

The experience of Covid will lead to chains being within the EU or at least those countries within the EU economic zone thereby allowing greater control.

Project Fear again - truth but you will get JRM on Nick Ferrari's show tomorrow denying it and flogging cheap trainers to the unwashed and devout believer but we know what the truth is.
 
I was brought up in a Labour Party supporting family and remember the 3 day week, bread strikes, the winter of discontent and bodies not being buried. My teenage years saw Thatcherism and I was indoctrinated to hate her. I joined the Army at the height of the Miners' Strike as there was no opportunities for young people from the north. The 1st thing I remember my platoon sergeant saying was that once you've served your country you will all vote conservative. At the time I remember hating him and thinking he was an arrogant sod. Strange how with maturity and considered hindsight I now realise that all those problems of the 70's and Thatcher's medicine of the 80's were caused by socialism and its failed ideologies. The Labour Party of post war Britain has long evaporated into a haven for liberal idiots to voice their nonsense policies that no longer identify with the British working class. In effect, that British working class man is now the new conservative. I include myself amongst them and if you had told me that 40 years since I'd have said you were lying. In effect, where once Conservatives were considered to represent those of privilege and Labour those of limited outlook, the argument has now become about people's view of their nation. Conservatives are proud of Britain, its history and what it stands for. Labour Party supporters have no pride in their country and could not raise a bloody pitchfork if Hitler was robbing their home. It's as simple as that, there are no shades of grey, you either support your nation's efforts or you vote Labour.
So you were brought up during the three day week etc and you blame Socialism for that. Are you aware that it was a Conservative PM Edward Heath whose idiotic incomes policy led to an overheating economy exacerbated by the OPEC crisis which led to inflation spiralling out of control to such an extent that when Labour took office the then Chancellor Denis Healey went to the IMF for a bail out. This led to Thatcherism and the introduction of Neo Liberalism to the UK which devastated the industrial base of the nation, ripped out the soul of the heartlands and threw 3 million people out of work.

The Labour Party of Atlee and Bevin only really became a party that was Socially liberal after Thatcher as the moderate socially liberal faction of the Labour party finally gained sway and the Left were removed from the party, history repeats itself as we see today.

The Conservative party do not love Britain, they love capitalism, if they loved Britain they wouldn't have created an underclass or people bereft of hope living in a country with more foodbanks than McDonalds, because if you love your country you love everyone in your country not just the priviliged few who went to certain schools and come from certain backgrounds. The history they are proud of is a history that is based on myth, it is faux patriotism, they love the myth of Dunkirk and standing alone against the Germans, they love the myth of the UK being a warrior island race, Thatcher herself was supposedly fond of comparisons with Boudicca.

It takes some nerve to say that Socialists don't love their country and to say they would not fight for it, because it was the Socialists who first fought Fascism and Hitler by proxy in the Spanish Civil War, thousands of brave Socialist men volunteered to go to Spain and fight for the International Brigade. Look up the Battle of Jarama where the British Battalion fought so bravely. During WW2 it was the working class who did the fighting and they rewarded Churchill by voting him out and installing a Socialist Government.

What the conservatives have done, is convince the working class to vote against there own interests, it is the biggest scam in British history, because the working class are voting for the capitalist class that control and dictate to them rather than choosing to control their own destiny.

I notice as well you have bought this social liberal rubbish, Socialism is not liberal, but you would have voted against Socialism thinking it was liberal, that is how clever the brainwashing propaganda of the RW machine is. It is that good Goebbels himself would be astonished how they get away with it and how people like yourself fall for it.
 
So you were brought up during the three day week etc and you blame Socialism for that. Are you aware that it was a Conservative PM Edward Heath whose idiotic incomes policy led to an overheating economy exacerbated by the OPEC crisis which led to inflation spiralling out of control to such an extent that when Labour took office the then Chancellor Denis Healey went to the IMF for a bail out. This led to Thatcherism and the introduction of Neo Liberalism to the UK which devastated the industrial base of the nation, ripped out the soul of the heartlands and threw 3 million people out of work.

The Labour Party of Atlee and Bevin only really became a party that was Socially liberal after Thatcher as the moderate socially liberal faction of the Labour party finally gained sway and the Left were removed from the party, history repeats itself as we see today.

The Conservative party do not love Britain, they love capitalism, if they loved Britain they wouldn't have created an underclass or people bereft of hope living in a country with more foodbanks than McDonalds, because if you love your country you love everyone in your country not just the priviliged few who went to certain schools and come from certain backgrounds. The history they are proud of is a history that is based on myth, it is faux patriotism, they love the myth of Dunkirk and standing alone against the Germans, they love the myth of the UK being a warrior island race, Thatcher herself was supposedly fond of comparisons with Boudicca.

It takes some nerve to say that Socialists don't love their country and to say they would not fight for it, because it was the Socialists who first fought Fascism and Hitler by proxy in the Spanish Civil War, thousands of brave Socialist men volunteered to go to Spain and fight for the International Brigade. Look up the Battle of Jarama where the British Battalion fought so bravely. During WW2 it was the working class who did the fighting and they rewarded Churchill by voting him out and installing a Socialist Government.

What the conservatives have done, is convince the working class to vote against there own interests, it is the biggest scam in British history, because the working class are voting for the capitalist class that control and dictate to them rather than choosing to control their own destiny.

I notice as well you have bought this social liberal rubbish, Socialism is not liberal, but you would have voted against Socialism thinking it was liberal, that is how clever the brainwashing propaganda of the RW machine is. It is that good Goebbels himself would be astonished how they get away with it and how people like yourself fall for it.
For completeness, and because even in the context of all the crap going on at the moment I think most people have a bit of a soft spot for Churchill on account of the EU and the world in general being way better than Hitler which ever side you are on, I'll just add - although Churchill is always portrayed as a drunk buffoon in any film these days, after the post war labour government had pretty much lost its majority in 1950 (despite founding the NHS) , Attlee called an election in 1951. Churchill was returned to power, followed by another 13 years of Conservative government.
 
For completeness, and because even in the context of all the crap going on at the moment I think most people have a bit of a soft spot for Churchill on account of the EU and the world in general being way better than Hitler which ever side you are on, I'll just add - although Churchill is always portrayed as a drunk buffoon in any film these days, after the post war labour government had pretty much lost its majority in 1950 (despite founding the NHS) , Attlee called an election in 1951. Churchill was returned to power, followed by another 13 years of Conservative government.
Labour got more votes than the Tories in 1951. What's your point?
 
Labour got more votes than the Tories in 1951. What's your point?
True. But by way less than in 1945. Though Atlee also got more votes.
No point to it, just info. To be honest, I didn't know there had to be a point.
 
Gary Oldman may well take issue with this ridiculous comment as will many other actors and film makers. Can you name the films you refer to?
The Brian Cox one "Churchill" was one. Have a look at https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/fake-history-in-churchill-starring-brian-cox/
I though Gary Oldman was good in Darkest Hour, he got an Oscar for it and who am I to argue, but if you google the "fact / fiction" things it was definitely jazzed up to make it a bit more interesting. And (I may be wrong) I think it finished by saying he got kicked out after the war but didn't mention the return. But there are loads of errors in that too, it is Holywood.
So strike "always" and add "sometimes"
 
The Brian Cox one "Churchill" was one. Have a look at https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/fake-history-in-churchill-starring-brian-cox/
I though Gary Oldman was good in Darkest Hour, he got an Oscar for it and who am I to argue, but if you google the "fact / fiction" things it was definitely jazzed up to make it a bit more interesting. And (I may be wrong) I think it finished by saying he got kicked out after the war but didn't mention the return. But there are loads of errors in that too, it is Holywood.
So strike "always" and add "sometimes"

so one example then - and for what its worth in my opinion it portrayed Churchill as liking a drink which is well documented so it was not inaccurate.

Well if you want Hollywood inaccuracies in wartime can I direct you to Pearl Harbour and U571 - fuck me they took some liberties there.
 
I do hope the EU string him along until the 30th Dec and then turn all the phones off so the 31st is just fucking panic for him - play him at his own game of brinksmanship
Personally I do hope they sort something good out and the UK does just fine, people have food, the EU prospers too and the world is a happy place. Of course there is a risk that a few people might think that he did a good job but given everything else that is going pear shaped at the moment it is a risk I'm personally prepared to take for the greater good.
so one example then - and for what its worth in my opinion it portrayed Churchill as liking a drink which is well documented so it was not inaccurate.

Well if you want Hollywood inaccuracies in wartime can I direct you to Pearl Harbour and U571 - fuck me they took some liberties there.
It wasn't really the main part of the non-point.
 
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Personally I do hope they sort something good out and the UK does just fine, people have food, the EU prospers too and the world is a happy place. Of course there is a risk that a few people might think that he did a good job but given everything else that is going pear shaped at the moment it is a risk I'm personally prepared to take for the greater good.

It wasn't really the main part of the non-point.

I want us to do well too but at this stage everything is fubar thanks to Johnson so I'd like to see the last act of his inevitable demise as the worst most destructive PM ever him being outplayed at his own "clever" game - trolled by the EU and hung out to dry - why not? He's fucked us all over why not the final act be him being done up the wrong 'un?
 
For completeness, and because even in the context of all the crap going on at the moment I think most people have a bit of a soft spot for Churchill on account of the EU and the world in general being way better than Hitler which ever side you are on, I'll just add - although Churchill is always portrayed as a drunk buffoon in any film these days, after the post war labour government had pretty much lost its majority in 1950 (despite founding the NHS) , Attlee called an election in 1951. Churchill was returned to power, followed by another 13 years of Conservative government.
My understanding of it is

The 51 election became about rationing, the Tories promised to end it sooner. The Tories also accepted that the NHS existed, having fought against it at its inception. Labour was also losing a lot of older MPs who had been stalwarts through WW2 such as Bevin. The Labour Party also won its highest number of votes it has ever won, but the vagaries of FPTP saw Labour lose.

Labour was the party of fiscal responsibility, whilst the Tories as ever were the chancers who would do anything for political gain. Imagine that the Tories gaining from Labour being prudent, but that prudence caused divisions in the Labour party on things like charges for certain things in the NHS. The Tories to there credit actually bought into the Labour plan of urban renewal and actually built more new council homes than Labour did although the economy was improving as a result of Labours time in office and its Keynesian economic approach

My own personal view of Churchill is that his popularity was a bit of a myth, he was the right leader at the right time during WW2 and earned great kudos for his leadership but apart from that he was not a nice man, he was reckless and fitted the picture of the right having no emotional intelligence and he had racist tendencies. No wonder Johnson thinks he is him incarnate.
 
My understanding of it is

The 51 election became about rationing, the Tories promised to end it sooner. The Tories also accepted that the NHS existed, having fought against it at its inception. Labour was also losing a lot of older MPs who had been stalwarts through WW2 such as Bevin. The Labour Party also won its highest number of votes it has ever won, but the vagaries of FPTP saw Labour lose.

Labour was the party of fiscal responsibility, whilst the Tories as ever were the chancers who would do anything for political gain. Imagine that the Tories gaining from Labour being prudent, but that prudence caused divisions in the Labour party on things like charges for certain things in the NHS. The Tories to there credit actually bought into the Labour plan of urban renewal and actually built more new council homes than Labour did although the economy was improving as a result of Labours time in office and its Keynesian economic approach

My own personal view of Churchill is that his popularity was a bit of a myth, he was the right leader at the right time during WW2 and earned great kudos for his leadership but apart from that he was not a nice man, he was reckless and fitted the picture of the right having no emotional intelligence and he had racist tendencies. No wonder Johnson thinks he is him incarnate.
Bevan not Bevin, unless you do mean Bevin.

And Attlee with two Ts.
 
My understanding of it is

The 51 election became about rationing, the Tories promised to end it sooner. The Tories also accepted that the NHS existed, having fought against it at its inception. Labour was also losing a lot of older MPs who had been stalwarts through WW2 such as Bevin. The Labour Party also won its highest number of votes it has ever won, but the vagaries of FPTP saw Labour lose.

Labour was the party of fiscal responsibility, whilst the Tories as ever were the chancers who would do anything for political gain. Imagine that the Tories gaining from Labour being prudent, but that prudence caused divisions in the Labour party on things like charges for certain things in the NHS. The Tories to there credit actually bought into the Labour plan of urban renewal and actually built more new council homes than Labour did although the economy was improving as a result of Labours time in office and its Keynesian economic approach

My own personal view of Churchill is that his popularity was a bit of a myth, he was the right leader at the right time during WW2 and earned great kudos for his leadership but apart from that he was not a nice man, he was reckless and fitted the picture of the right having no emotional intelligence and he had racist tendencies. No wonder Johnson thinks he is him incarnate.
I don't believe it is fair to compare him with Johnson at all. Whilst Churchill was flawed and imperfect, as you admit, he was also the leader Britain needed in 1945. Contrast that to the leadership that the UK needed and actually delivered in 2020. The pair really should not be mentioned in the same breath.

I think you are referring more to Churchill rather victorian views on lots of things - hardly surprising though given when he was born. He has become a prism through which we see politics just now, representing as he does Britishness with all its Dunkirk spirt. He made controversial contributions at Gollipoli in WW1, Tonypandy, the Bengal Famine and the bombing of Dresden which to me requires that we look at his political career with respect but some critical balance.
 
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