“The work of God”?

[Ban-jani]

Why wouldn't he do that? You only have to look at every terrorist incident to see how many people are willing to martyr themselves. But which part of the Old Testament specifically predicts Christ's crucifixion?

There’s absolutely shit loads mate, from several books.

Psalm 22:16 states, “My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs; an evil gang closes in on me. They have pierced my hands and feet.”

Isaiah 50:6 says, “I offered my back to those who beat me and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard. I did not hide my face from mockery and spitting.” Psalm 22:14a, 15: “My life is poured out of me like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My strength has dried up like sun-baked clay, My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth. Psalm 69:21b: “They offer me sour wine for my thirst.”

The soldier offered Jesus wine mixed with gall, rather than water for His thirst. Psalm 22:7-8a: “Everyone who sees me mocks me, they sneer and shake their heads saying, Is this the One who relies on God? Then let the Lord save Him!”

I could go on, there’s many more.

In total there is 361 accurate accounts of the life of Jesus from the OT.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Neither of those statements is true.

They’ve found a copy of the book of Acts (Luke part 2) dated to around 60AD.

If Luke was written before Acts, we can accurately predict it was at least in the 50’s AD, then Matthew and Mark written before then, with Mark considered the earliest, which could have been in the 30’s AD or 40’s. Christ was crucified between 28 AD and 33 AD.

This means the majority of the Gospels were written when St Peter, who was Christ’s closest disciple, was still alive and the authors were almost definitely alive.

St Paul was alive when Christ was crucified and he’s an author within the New Testament.

On your latter point, scholars who are maximalist (which means they believe the story to be accurate in terms of claims of divinity and crucifixion), are now in the majority because they’ve found a Roman letter describing Christians as followers of a man called Jesus, crucified for blasphemy.

Are there any contemporary sources from people without a clear interest in the story that Jesus was the son of God. Paul may have been alive, but he was also an apostle, so he would clearly have an interest in adding or emphasising details that would make Jesus' life fit in with a prophesies of pre-existing Jewish theology. In the same way that Muhammad is written to do the same thing in Islam.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

There’s absolutely shit loads mate, from several books.

Psalm 22:16 states, “My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs; an evil gang closes in on me. They have pierced my hands and feet.”

Isaiah 50:6 says, “I offered my back to those who beat me and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard. I did not hide my face from mockery and spitting.” Psalm 22:14a, 15: “My life is poured out of me like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My strength has dried up like sun-baked clay, My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth. Psalm 69:21b: “They offer me sour wine for my thirst.”

The soldier offered Jesus wine mixed with gall, rather than water for His thirst. Psalm 22:7-8a: “Everyone who sees me mocks me, they sneer and shake their heads saying, Is this the One who relies on God? Then let the Lord save Him!”

I could go on, there’s many more.

In total there is 361 accurate accounts of the life of Jesus from the OT.

I was hoping for something with a little more context than just a few quickly googleable bible quotes. For example just in that first one, who is "my" and why is it written in the past tense if it's a prediction of future events?

 

[Ban-jani]

Please could you provide any evidence for the authorship of any of the 4 official gospels.

Who Wrote the Gospels, and How Do We Know for Sure?

The closest we get to a claim of authorship is at the very end of the Book of John, where the author implies that the book was written by “the disciple…

zondervanacademic.com

Here’s a good article on it.

It’s a bit of a loaded question. If the Gospels were early enough to have eyewitness statements, and they’re obviously written by different people, why is it that important?

 

[Ban-jani]

Are there any contemporary sources from people without a clear interest in the story that Jesus was the son of God. Paul may have been alive, but he was also an apostle, so he would clearly have an interest in adding or emphasising details that would make Jesus' life fit in with a prophesies of pre-existing Jewish theology. In the same way that Muhammad is written to do the same thing in Islam.

Paul was very much a Jewish man who was persecuting Christians, he was going around attacking them. He completely u turned because Christ appeared to him when he was travelling to Damascus. He even writes about his past in Corinthians 1.

But yes, the scholars who think the Gospels are at least accurate about his life, not necessarily the miracles and divinity but that his life story was close to the truth, were vindicated by Roman letters who described Christians as being religious followers of a man called Jesus crucified in Jerusalem.

Someone in Rome wrote in the 2nd century that the local authority crucified this man called Jesus and he has followers who look at him as a religious figure.

The letter was from the administration and it acknowledged the event itself.

 

[blueish swede]

The earliest known surviving fragment of the new testament dates from 125-200 AD. It is a tiny fragment of St John's gospel




and it is on permanent display in John Rylands library on Oxford Rd.

 

[Ban-jani]

I was hoping for something with a little more context than just a few quickly googleable bible quotes. For example just in that first one, who is "my" and why is it written in the past tense if it's a prediction of future events?

Well “piecing hands and feet” is pretty profound. The gone off wine part is also very accurate as it’s in the Gospels, when He’s on the cross.

There’s many more, including an accurate description of who He was crucified with, two thieves either side.

The tense in which it’s described is common in the Bible, as it’s a statement of Christ being infinite. He also says “before Abraham was, I AM”.

The book of John does this a lot in its opening chapters.

The context around the statements is a prophecy being told, it’s not describing a past event.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Paul was very much a Jewish man who was persecuting Christians, he was going around attacking them. He completely u turned because Christ appeared to him when he was travelling to Damascus. He even writes about his past in Corinthians 1.

But yes, the scholars who think the Gospels are at least accurate about his life, not necessarily the miracles and divinity but that his life story was close to the truth, were vindicated by Roman letters who described Christians as being religious followers of a man called Jesus crucified in Jerusalem.

Someone in Rome wrote in the 2nd century that the local authority crucified this man called Jesus and he has followers who look at him as a religious figure.

The letter was from the administration and it acknowledged the event itself.

Well yes, that's not the controversial part of it. I don't think most non-Christians have trouble accepting the narrative that there was a man called Jesus who had a religious following and was executed by the Romans. The problem is everything else surrounding it.

 

[BimboBob]

Well yes, that's not the controversial part of it. I don't think most non-Christians have trouble accepting the narrative that there was a man called Jesus who had a religious following and was executed by the Romans. The problem is everything else surrounding it.

Indeed. Maybe not called Jesus as there's no record of that name in any roman texts of the time. But there are records of plenty of religious men who had followers and were executed. Jesus is probably a mash up of them when the first books were written.

The rest though? Utter nonsense aimed at the great unwashed and uneducated to show that this new God/ son of God was better than the pagan of choice that they worshipped.

 

[Ban-jani]

Well yes, that's not the controversial part of it. I don't think most non-Christians have trouble accepting the narrative that there was a man called Jesus who had a religious following and was executed by the Romans. The problem is everything else surrounding it.

Of course and there’s where faith comes in.

However, several of the 12, including St Peter, were executed for being Christians. St Peter was to be crucified for refusing to renounce his faith but he wouldn’t, he went to his death because he believed it.

His only request was that he be crucified upside down, because he wasn’t worthy of dying the same way as the Lord.

He saw the Risen Christ, that’s why he wouldn’t renounce it and that’s the reason he went to his death.

 

[Magicpole]

Are there any contemporary sources from people without a clear interest in the story that Jesus was the son of God. Paul may have been alive, but he was also an apostle, so he would clearly have an interest in adding or emphasising details that would make Jesus' life fit in with a prophesies of pre-existing Jewish theology. In the same way that Muhammad is written to do the same thing in Islam.

The same book said the world and universe was created in days. It said the earth was created before light, the sun. It said the earth was flat. That Adam and Eve were real. That monsters lived. That unicorns lived. That there was a census that Joe and Mary Doll went to be part of, it didnt happen. That the jews wandered the desert for 40 years, they didn't. Israel tried to find archaeological evidence, found nothing.

So, because a book filled with bullshit and lies says something, does that mean it hapoebed, when all the above was also claimed to be true and held to be true until science showed it was the ramblings of Bronze Age men who knew no better. God would have known if he existed, he doesn't or he has dementia and can't remember what he did. There are also not one word in Roman historical records about a guy who could draw thousands and who was foretold to banish the Romans, not a word. Yet we know they ruthlessly waged war on any threat, but not Jesus. Was it the Life of Brian Roman soldiers who never asked Rome, what do we do with this guy? Not one word.

It's almost as if they didn't say anything, because it never happened.

Then there's slavery, allowed to beat them unpunished if they survive 3 days. Told by Jeezy to respect your masters. Killing your family because they don't worship him. Or women being chattels and property. It's Bronze Age customs written in many gospels, they all contradict each other. It's a myth.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The same book said the world and universe was created in days. It said the earth was created before light, the sun. It said thecwarth was flat. That Adam and Eve were real. That monsters lived. That unucirbs lived. That there was a census that Joe and Mary Doll went to be part of, it didnt happen. That the jews wandered the desert for 40 years, they didn't. Israel tried to find archaeological evidence, found nothing.

So, because a book filled with bullshit and lies says something, does that mean it d7d, when all the above was also claimed to be true and held to be true 7ntil.scuence showed it was the rambk7ngs of Bronze Age men who knew no better. God would have known if he existed, he doesn't or he has dementia and can't remember what he did. There are also not one word 8n Roman historical records about a guy who could r4aw thousands and who was foretold to banish the Romans not a word. Yet we know they ruthlessly waged war on any threat, but not Jesus. Was it the Life of Brian Roman soldiers who never asked Rome, what do we do with this guy? Not one word.

It's almost as if they didn't say anything, because it never happened.

Then there's slavery, allowed to hest them unpunished if they survive 3 days. Told by Jeezy to resoect your masters. Killing your family because they don't worship him. Or women being chattels and property. It's Bronze Age customs written in many gospels, they call contradict each other. It's a myth.

a post of yours I actually agree with. Blimey.

 

[Magicpole]

a post of yours I actually agree with. Blimey.

Theres always a first time. But, at least thanks for reading them. :)

 

[Ban-jani]

Indeed. Maybe not called Jesus as there's no record of that name in any roman texts of the time. But there are records of plenty of religious men who had followers and were executed. Jesus is probably a mash up of them when the first books were written.

The rest though? Utter nonsense aimed at the great unwashed and uneducated to show that this new God/ son of God was better than the pagan of choice that they worshipped.

This isn’t true mate.

There’s a Roman letter from 64 AD that talks of “Christus” suffering the “extreme penalty” in Jerusalem.

Then there’s a Jewish historian who wrote about “a wise man” called “Jesus” (well translated in English to Jesus), being in Judea. He also mentions James, the brother of Jesus and he calls James “the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ”.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Well “piecing hands and feet” is pretty profound. The gone off wine part is also very accurate as it’s in the Gospels, when He’s on the cross.

There’s many more, including an accurate description of who He was crucified with, two thieves either side.

The tense in which it’s described is common in the Bible, as it’s a statement of Christ being infinite. He also says “before Abraham was, I AM”.

The book of John does this a lot in its opening chapters.

The context around the statements is a prophecy being told, it’s not describing a past event.

This is simply not true though. The context of Psalms 22 is the author (represented as David) crying out for God to save him and his people in a moment of need. God then does so and he promises to serve him. It's not a prophesy at all. Earlier in the same verse it says "Strong bulls of Bashan encircle me." That's a clear context of a conflict with a neighbouring group from what is now Syria that appears as an adversary of the Israelites several times throughout the Old Testament. And it does mention piercing hands and feet, but the full passage also mentions loads of other stuff that then doesn't get quoted on a "10 times the Old Testament predicted Jesus" website, because they don't support the pre-existing conclusion.

 

[Ban-jani]

This is simply not true though. The context of Psalms 22 is the author (represented as David) crying out for God to save him and his people in a moment of need. God then does so and he promises to serve him. It's not a prophesy at all. Earlier in the same verse it says "Strong bulls of Bashan encircle me." That's a clear context of a conflict with a neighbouring group from what is now Syria that appears as an adversary of the Israelites several times throughout the Old Testament. And it does mention piercing hands and feet, but the full passage also mentions loads of other stuff that then doesn't get quoted on a "10 times the Old Testament predicted Jesus" website, because they don't support the pre-existing conclusion.

Yes it is. It’s refuted it’s David, many Jewish people view it as Jewish people in general, and their suffering, rather than one man specifically.

It’s also in a section of the book that has prophecies.

Here is another quote from Psalms and is taken from Wikipedia:

And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This is the only saying which appears in more than one Gospel, and is a quote from Psalm 22:1 (or probably Psalm 42:9).

 

[urban genie]

This is simply not true though. The context of Psalms 22 is the author (represented as David) crying out for God to save him and his people in a moment of need. God then does so and he promises to serve him. It's not a prophesy at all. Earlier in the same verse it says "Strong bulls of Bashan encircle me." That's a clear context of a conflict with a neighbouring group from what is now Syria that appears as an adversary of the Israelites several times throughout the Old Testament. And it does mention piercing hands and feet, but the full passage also mentions loads of other stuff that then doesn't get quoted on a "10 times the Old Testament predicted Jesus" website, because they don't support the pre-existing conclusion.

Does,'t matter really if the OT did predict anything in the NT.

As comments on the messiah in the OT will be added to the jesus story to validate him by his followers


Any group in those ancient times that wants to push a messsage will use old tales and prophecies as propaganda

Not a reply to you specifically but may as well save mutiple posting v

As for historians quoting jesus in thier books, the books are post AD so all will have read marks gospel or heard of it.

 

[journolud]

The only convicted paedo I knew was an active Boys Brigade officer in my local Methodist church.

A meaningless addition to the discussion

 

[Ban-jani]

Does,'t matter really if the OT did predict anything in the NT.

As comments on the messiah in the OT will be added to the jesus story to validate him by his followers


Any group in those ancient times that wants to push a messsage will use old tales and prophecies as propaganda

Not a reply to you specifically but may as well save mutiple posting v

As for historians quoting jesus in thier books, the books are post AD so all will have read marks gospel or heard of it.

Josephus was a first century Jewish Historian who wrote about Jesus being the “so-called Christ”.

Also, because the Gospels were written, it doesn’t mean they were being distributed.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

You are all just Christianophobic. :)

I’m religiophobic. I think all religions should be “declassified” to mythologies. All the main world religions have as much credibility as any old extinct religions like Greek and Norse that are called mythologies.

Slightly off topic, but popped into my head as I was reading.

Have you ever been on your own or even walking down the street and are sure ypu heard someone call your name pr talk to you?

Think it has happened to me maybe 20 odd times in my life. A bloke at work teaes ago whp was religious used to say it was your gaurdian angel checking on you, personally I just think your mind sometimes fuckabout subconsciously

We are simply conditioned to hear and see things that are familiar to us.

When we look at clouds or patterns on a wallpaper or objects, we recognise faces in them. It’s called Face Pareidolia.

When it comes to sounds and names, where we can hear a train wheel screeching against the tracks from a mile away but our ear recognises it as our name being called. You even get it when you listen to music and hear your name in the lyrics (but when you read the lyrics, it’s something different). It’s called Audio Pareidolia.

When we see and hear things in dreams, they are images or sounds we’ve heard in real life, stored in our memory probably from a film or Google Images, back through history they’ll have been the bloke at a market they visited five years previously but don’t actively remember who they are when awake. We attach significance to those things through our societal conditioning.

If society had never made up this “god” or “Jesus”, we wouldn’t see their face on a ready salted crisp or think we’ve been visited in a dream because it wouldn’t be within our human conditioning to know what they are.