Afghanistan

[BobKowalski]

They shouldn’t have left, that’s absolutely obvious and the evacuation process, if they must leave, has been handled atrociously anyway. He’s had 7+ months to sort out whatever Trump did prior, it’s no good continuously blaming Trump.

The US has thousands of troops all around the world and the mere presence of the US military remaining in Afghanistan would have deterred the Taliban.

The article I posted is proof Biden is a liar and no better than his predecessor in warping reality to save his own face… which is typical of politicians I know but not on this scale of calamity.

The peace deal mandated the withdrawal of American forces by May of this year. Biden extended this to September. Breaking the peace deal would have meant the resumption of the conflict, a conflict that had already lasted twenty years, and would have meant more US troops in Afghanistan. The US had lost sight of why they were in Afghanistan, it had become a bankrupt military action devoid of purpose or meaning.

Your solution was for that to continue and further escalate hostilities in a country that was 60% controlled by the Taliban. The American public was become opposed to the action in Afghanistan and Biden promised to end the involvement, a promise made politically easier by the peace deal negotiated by the previous administration.

The idea Biden had 7 months ‘to sort out’ a situation that had steadfastly remained ‘unsorted’ for two decades is laughable. By all means, blame Biden for operational mistakes or the misreading of the strength of the Afghan Govt and military, but no one is buying the bad faith arguments you are making.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

If the EXACT same things had all happened under Trump, they would be getting roundly ignored by the Administration and Trump would be bragging about how he ended the war, brought our troops home and did it all better than anyone else in history has ever done.

And Republicans would be in the Rose Garden giving him a standing O!

One things Republicans do well is ignore reality and push their own agenda.

One things Democrats do well is apologize to the small minority for every little thing they didn’t like, and bury any and all achievements for fear of offending someone!

 

[Octavian]

The peace deal mandated the withdrawal of American forces by May of this year. Biden extended this to September. Breaking the peace deal would have meant the resumption of the conflict, a conflict that had already lasted twenty years, and would have meant more US troops in Afghanistan. The US had lost sight of why they were in Afghanistan, it had become a bankrupt military action devoid of purpose or meaning.

Your solution was for that to continue and further escalate hostilities in a country that was 60% controlled by the Taliban. The American public was become opposed to the action in Afghanistan and Biden promised to end the involvement, a promise made politically easier by the peace deal negotiated by the previous administration.

The idea Biden had 7 months ‘to sort out’ a situation that had steadfastly remained ‘unsorted’ for two decades is laughable. By all means, blame Biden for operational mistakes or the misreading of the strength of the Afghan Govt and military, but no one is buying the bad faith arguments you are making.

What are “bad faith arguments”?

The withdrawal from Afghanistan has made the world a more unsafe place. Has allowed morally bankrupt religious fanatics to take over a key region, allowed Russia and China to strengthen and made even more extreme groups, wishing to inflict terror on the world, stronger, with a chance at another platform region.

The fallout from it is worse than breaking a promise with the Taliban and staying. The US had control and could have maintained it.

It’s not just the operational side, it’s his blatant disregard for human life and his lies to make himself look better in the short term.

He promised less than a fortnight ago to get every American out or the troops will stay… well not every American is out and his troops are now completely out.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

“What about Trump and the American right” doesn’t cut it in September 2021, the Dems are in charge and they have the blood of American servicemen and innocent Afghan’s on their hands.

Just have a Google of the families of the killed Americans to get their take.

I get it, Biden is your man and he’s on the side you prefer, but this fingers in ears defence on here is sad.

I’ve not even mentioned the Afghan’s the allied forces have left behind.

The UK less so as we weren’t the key decision makers but also culpable in this department.

 

[Octavian]

If the EXACT same things had all happened under Trump, they would be getting roundly ignored by the Administration and Trump would be growing about how he ended the war, brought our troops home and did it all better than anyone else in history has ever done.

And Republicans would be in the RoseGarden giving him a standing O!

One things Republicans do well is ignore reality and push their own agenda.

One things Democrats do well is apologize to the small minority for every little thing they didn’t like, and bury any and all achievements for fear of offending someone!

Does that make it ok if Trump is a wanker too?

In response to innocent people falling off planes Biden said “that was 5 days ago man”.

He spent half his time at the service in front of the families of those his operation had left to be killed, looking at his watch.

He’s a prick.

 

[BobKowalski]

What are “bad faith arguments”?

The withdrawal from Afghanistan has made the world a more unsafe place. Has allowed morally bankrupt religious fanatics to take over a key region, allowed Russia and China to strengthen and made even more extreme groups, wishing to inflict terror on the world, stronger, with a chance at another platform region.

The fallout from it is worse than breaking a promise with the Taliban and staying. The US had control and could have maintained it.

It’s not just the operational side, it’s his blatant disregard for human life and his lies to make himself look better in the short term.

He promised less than a fortnight ago to get every American out or the troops will stay… well not every American is out and his troops are now completely out.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

“What about Trump and the American right” doesn’t cut it in September 2021, the Dems are in charge and they have the blood of American servicemen and innocent Afghan’s on their hands.

Just have a Google of the families of the killed Americans to get their take.

I get it, Biden is your man and he’s on the side you prefer, but this fingers in ears defence on here is sad.

I’ve not even mentioned the Afghan’s the allied forces have left behind.

The UK less so as we weren’t the key decision makers but also culpable in this department.

No one has defended Biden over the withdrawal operation. Mistakes were made, Biden acknowledged they had miscalculated the strength and viability of the Afghan Govt and military, a consequence of this was the chaos that was the background to the operation. An operation that eventually evacuated some 120,000 people

Bad faith arguments are made by political opponents who in this instance refuse to acknowledge the steps that led to this point, the actions of previous administrations, and cynically use the situation for political point scoring. It is why I give your posts short shrift.

 

[Octavian]

No one has defended Biden over the withdrawal operation. Mistakes were made, Biden acknowledged they had miscalculated the strength and viability of the Afghan Govt and military, a consequence of this was the chaos that was the background to the operation. An operation that eventually evacuated some 120,000 people

Bad faith arguments are made by political opponents who in this instance refuse to acknowledge the steps that led to this point, the actions of previous administrations, and cynically use the situation for political point scoring. It is why I give your posts short shrift.

You have briefly acknowledged his mistakes but this forum is littered with people moving away from Biden to attack other targets who are their political opponents.

We had one person thanking Biden on the previous page, thanking him! Laughable!

Biden isn’t my political opponent, I’m not American and I’m certainly not a Trump supporter. I’m commenting because my family has a military background that involves Afghan and Iraq and this guy (yes and Trump) has cocked up the last 20 years’ worth of work. He’s also abandoned personnel and lied to those on the ground so he’s got a full house.

There seems to be a narrative in all the threads in this sub forum and it’s very biased. I expected Biden to be getting a lot of flack but he hasn’t, yet in the real world ex military men and women across the whole allied forces are calling him a disgrace.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

They shouldn’t have left, that’s absolutely obvious and the evacuation process, if they must leave, has been handled atrociously anyway. He’s had 7+ months to sort out whatever Trump did prior, it’s no good continuously blaming Trump.

The US has thousands of troops all around the world and the mere presence of the US military remaining in Afghanistan would have deterred the Taliban.

The article I posted is proof Biden is a liar and no better than his predecessor in warping reality to save his own face… which is typical of politicians I know but not on this scale of calamity.

The issue is how they left, not that they left.

 

[inbetween]

Does that make it ok if Trump is a wanker too?

In response to innocent people falling off planes Biden said “that was 5 days ago man”.

He spent half his time at the service in front of the families of those his operation had left to be killed, looking at his watch.

He’s a prick.

Biden is a politician, Trump is a politician, they're in the same boat as tossers as far as I'm concerned no matter what they peddle.

My mate serviced Tornadoes whilst doing his bit in Afghanistan and the story he tells every single time is how Tony Blair visited his base, my mate shook his hand and called him a wanker under his breath. A few weeks later his base lost their first pilots who were shot down by accident by the Americans.

You won't find a single service person who will say a good thing about a politician that I can absolutely guarantee.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Time is the healer... 12+ months from now in the 2022 elections, what's happened in Afghanistan is unlikely to shift voting opinion much. The state of the economy, and COVID are likely to drive the elections IMO.

 

[Bigga]

It’s absolutely astonishing this sort of attitude.

It’s why I purposefully don’t hold political affiliations to particular people or parties.

You end up defending a clown like Biden.

Exclusive: Before Afghan collapse, Biden pressed Ghani to ‘change perception’

In the last call between U.S. President Joe Biden and his Afghanistan counterpart before the Taliban seized control of the country, the leaders discussed military aid, political strategy and messaging tactics, but neither Biden nor Ashraf Ghani appeared aware of or prepared for the immediate...

www.reuters.com

“I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”

I must admit, when I heard him say that he reminded me of someone the world laughed at, not too long ago, but because it's Biden...

 

[Bigga]

What are “bad faith arguments”?

The withdrawal from Afghanistan has made the world a more unsafe place. Has allowed morally bankrupt religious fanatics to take over a key region, allowed Russia and China to strengthen and made even more extreme groups, wishing to inflict terror on the world, stronger, with a chance at another platform region.

The fallout from it is worse than breaking a promise with the Taliban and staying. The US had control and could have maintained it.

It’s not just the operational side, it’s his blatant disregard for human life and his lies to make himself look better in the short term.

He promised less than a fortnight ago to get every American out or the troops will stay… well not every American is out and his troops are now completely out.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

“What about Trump and the American right” doesn’t cut it in September 2021, the Dems are in charge and they have the blood of American servicemen and innocent Afghan’s on their hands.

Just have a Google of the families of the killed Americans to get their take.

I get it, Biden is your man and he’s on the side you prefer, but this fingers in ears defence on here is sad.

I’ve not even mentioned the Afghan’s the allied forces have left behind.

The UK less so as we weren’t the key decision makers but also culpable in this department.

The ONLY thing I disagree with here is the need for another country's army's continued occupancy of some other country.

The US were there under false pretence anyway; liars that they and the UK gov are.

 

[Bigga]

No one has defended Biden over the withdrawal operation. Mistakes were made, Biden acknowledged they had miscalculated the strength and viability of the Afghan Govt and military, a consequence of this was the chaos that was the background to the operation. An operation that eventually evacuated some 120,000 people

Bad faith arguments are made by political opponents who in this instance refuse to acknowledge the steps that led to this point, the actions of previous administrations, and cynically use the situation for political point scoring. It is why I give your posts short shrift.

Did I introduce you to this?

Here, anyway, it might just tick a few boxes...

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

@Bigga
I fail to see why you gleefully attack Biden for withdrawing from Afghanistan. Did you want the US to stay in Afghanistan and continue the decades long war? Presumably you did not.

So, yes, the Afghan withdrawal was very badly mismanaged. But this occurred because the Afghan government collapsed so rapidly. Turning a manageable evacuation under the auspices of the US-backed Afghan government, into a disorderly chaotic retreat under a nescient Taliban government.

That the evacuation fiasco occurred is on Biden for sure. Somehow, US intelligence about how rapid Taliban takeover would transpire wasn't forceful enough to convince Biden to take this into account - but such intelligence was out there... and if given credence - a more orderly evacuation might have occured.
===
But the US is now out of Afghanistan - ending a senseless, decades long, doomed, but well-intentioned act of nation building. Meanwhile @Bigga is rejoicing in how many lives were lost getting the US out of this mess.

 

[Octavian]

The ONLY thing I disagree with here is the need for another country's army's continued occupancy of some other country.

The US were there under false pretence anyway; liars that they and the UK gov are.

I just don’t see another option for the time being considering the relatively peaceful last 2 years.

Regarding the 00s, I don’t think anyone backs the Iraq war now, it was a fuck up of epic proportions and I’m just sad young relatives of mine went.

Afghan 01 was a complex one, we needed Al Qaeda but whether it was Pakistan’s government we needed to pressure to give them up or more we could have done with the Taliban, I don’t know.

I’m against foreign wars if they can be avoided, I’ve seen what it did to my nephews.

 

[Bigga]

@Bigga
I fail to see why you gleefully attack Biden for withdrawing from Afghanistan. Did you want the US to stay in Afghanistan and continue the decades long war? Presumably you did not.

So, yes, the Afghan withdrawal was very badly mismanaged. But primarily this occurred because the Afghan government collapsed so rapidly. Turning a manageable evacuation under the auspices of the US-backed Afghan government, into a disorderly chaotic retreat under a nescient Taliban government.

That this occurred is on Biden for sure. Somehow, US intelligence about how rapid Taliban takeover would occur wasn't forceful enough to convince Biden to take this into account.
===
But the US is now out of Afghanistan - ending a senseless, decades long, doomed, but well-intentioned act of nation building.

So, interestingly enough, many of your questions are answered within the video above. That the US had 'poor intelligence' is a blatant lie. Blatant.

But, yes, I wanted the troops out of Afghanistan, but as I've stated before (which was ignored yet again) how could the US enter a country and not have a feasible exit plan for EVERY situation over the last 20 years?

And, not to evacuate necessary civilians at risk over 7 months is shocking!

And, lastly, why 7 months extension when you might as well asked for a year? Was the '9/11' target so important as some sort of symbolism?

If so, well that's fell flat on its face, hasn't it?

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

So, interestingly enough, many of your questions are answered within the video above. That the US had 'poor intelligence' is a blatant lie. Blatant.

But, yes, I wanted the troops out of Afghanistan, but as I've stated before (which was ignored yet again) how could the US enter a country and not have a feasible exit plan for EVERY situation over the last 20 years?

And, not to evacuate necessary civilians at risk over 7 months is shocking!

And, lastly, why 7 months extension when you might as well asked for a year? Was the '9/11' target so important as some sort of symbolism?

If so, well that's fell flat on its face, hasn't it?

>> That the US had 'poor intelligence' is a blatant lie. Blatant.
I never claimed that the US did not have intelligence that this might transpire. I claimed that it wasn't forceful enough to convince Biden - why? Because, presumably a lot of other intelligence argued exactly the opposite.

Biden made a mistake in believing the intelligence counter to what's transpired - or at least considering this likely enough to take it into account. It's on him. But he got the US out of Afghanistan.
===
A final point - some argue that we should have stayed much longer - evacuating many more people.

Given the obviously inadequate security screening carried out by Taliban checkpoints prior to Afghan citizens coming face-to-face with US soldiers, staying any longer than we did would simply result in more suicide bombings. Given the mess that we were in, getting out as soon as we did was absolutely the right thing to do.

Now, we will work with the Taliban to secure safe passage later on for those whom we couldn't initially evacuate.

 

[Bigga]

>> That the US had 'poor intelligence' is a blatant lie. Blatant.
I never claimed that the US did not have intelligence that this might transpire. I claimed that it wasn't forceful enough to convince Biden - why? Because, presumably a lot of other intelligence argued exactly the opposite.

Biden made a mistake in believing the intelligence counter to what's transpired - or at least considering this likely enough to take it into account. It's on him. But he got the US out of Afghanistan.

Does that mean you agree with the rest of the unanswered post?

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Does that mean you agree with the rest of the unanswered post?

For starters - do you disagree with what I posted?

Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean with "the rest of the unanswered post" - which to me is something about why a particular deadline was set.

I've already stated, quite clearly - getting the fuck out of there as soon as possible - given the entirely inadequate security - was absolutely necessary. You mention asking for a year's extension - well thank God that didn't happen.

Do you honestly think that the security situation on the ground in Afghanistan was at all robust? It's a bloody miracle that more lives weren't lost. We needed to get out of there ASAP.

 

[Bigga]

For starters - do you disagree with what I posted?

Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean with "the rest of the unanswered post" - which to me is something about why a particular deadline was set.

I've already stated, quite clearly - getting the fuck out of there as soon as possible - given the entirely inadequate security - was absolutely necessary. You mention asking for a year's extension - well thank God that didn't happen.

Do you honestly think that the security situation on the ground in Afghanistan was at all robust? It's a bloody miracle that more lives weren't lost. We needed to get out of there ASAP.

Not only the US gov know, they knew by a very credible source as it was one of their own generals that said this.

The year's extension was about getting people out with considerably less death than what happened as the result. There would been no need very the 'robust' action that happened.

Not sure why you see this as an issue?

 

[BobKowalski]

I just don’t see another option for the time being considering the relatively peaceful last 2 years.

Regarding the 00s, I don’t think anyone backs the Iraq war now, it was a fuck up of epic proportions and I’m just sad young relatives of mine went.

Afghan 01 was a complex one, we needed Al Qaeda but whether it was Pakistan’s government we needed to pressure to give them up or more we could have done with the Taliban, I don’t know.

I’m against foreign wars if they can be avoided, I’ve seen what it did to my nephews.

Because the US signed a peace deal stating they would withdraw by May of this year in exchange for a ceasefire.

Jeez.