Afghanistan

The fallout from Afghanistan from a European perspective was the realisation in Europe that over-reliance on the US is not a sustainable position.

“In short, Europe seems to realise it will have to do more by itself. Whether sceptics understand it or not, this is exactly what Macron has been saying. Nobody will say so aloud. But the implicit recognition is zut alors, Macron was right" @The Economist
 
Bigga said:
Not only the US gov know, they knew by a very credible source as it was one of their own generals that said this.

The year's extension was about getting people out with considerably less death than what happened as the result. There would been no need very the 'robust' action that happened.

Not sure why you see this as an issue?
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>> Not only the US gov know, they knew by a very credible source as it was one of their own generals that said this.
I've answered this again and again. Clearly Biden didn't think that such a rapid take-over by the Taliban was likely. Intelligence counter to what has actually transpired must have been presented and was believed. That's on Biden.

There's a pattern here though - when it's perceived that the boss wants to hear something - everyone scrambles to present the boss with what he wants to hear. Dissenting opinions - while present - are downplayed. This is why we went into Iraq, perusing weapons of mass destruction - which, as it turned out - didn't exist.

And too, this is likely why Biden somehow believed that the Afghan government was at least stable enough to last until US troops and personnel withdrew from the country - intelligence counter to this viewpoint notwithstanding.

>> The year's extension was about getting people out with considerably less death than what happened as the result.
As I've said - security in Afghanistan is non-existent. Moreover, the Taliban wanted us out and refused any deadline extension. Staying any longer than we did would evacuate some more people but would come at the cost of American lives as suicide bombings and other attacks would almost certainly occur and would occur with some success.
 
Wife’s bagged 4 bin bags full of clothes unbearable watching them families young children old aged etc, be taking them tomorrow to help out in anyway we can heartbreaking what they’ve had to endure
 
domalino said:
Tell that to the women and girls who got to go to school, or walk down the street unaccompanied, or not wear a burqa for the last 20 years.
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Great sound bite!

Completely meaningless response, but makes you look and sound like a great guy. Well done!

I know guys who have been over there many years and, to a man, they readily acknowledge that without a desire to be the occupying force underpinning a weak government running on American dollars, Afghanistan was ALWAYS going to be a third world, inhospitable, country living a hair’s breadth from the Middle Ages. Indeed, with the exception of Kabul, 95% of Afghanistan is STILL like a country stuck in the Middle Ages.

America has sacrificed enough to chase AQ out of Afghanistan, and the technology to hunt them down in 2021 is light years ahead of where it was in 2001…without boots on the ground.

In addition to the lives and money sent into the Afghan abyss, the world has moved on from chasing AQ, and OBL is long dead.

None of that presupposes that Afghanistan will never birth, or harbour, another terrorist, but then London could do exactly the same thing AGAIN (7/7).

It is all well and good to tout your denigration of the American cost by comparing it to the advances provided to females, but at what price, for how long, and paid for by whom?

There is nothing quite like the “enlightened arrogance” of the European/American male, who determined the entire world should live by HIS version of what a decent life is, what rights everyone should have, and what access to the kind of life he enjoys should be provided to others.

Meanwhile, racism is alive and well, sexism is alive and well, and inequality of all kinds runs rampant across Europe & America, but we should OCCUPY A FOREIGN COUNTRY to make them in our image?

Afghans, like Brits and Yanks before them, need to stand up for themselves sooner or later…and 20 yrs seems like later is here. Alas, it appears the men…the ones who were supposed to be the powerful ones in their families…look like they’re the weak ones, and the women and girls are the ones who have been showing ALL the courage in the face of aggression, which makes the weakness of the men in the Afghan govt even sadder.

Just not sad enough to stay in an intractable war costing billions of American tax dollars per month with 10,000s of American boots on the ground ad infinitim. Sorry.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Great sound bite!

Completely meaningless response, but makes you look and sound like a great guy. Well done!

I know guys who have been over there many years and, to a man, they readily acknowledge that without a desire to be the occupying force underpinning a weak government running on American dollars, Afghanistan was ALWAYS going to be a third world, inhospitable, country living a hair’s breadth from the Middle Ages. Indeed, with the exception of Kabul, 95% of Afghanistan is STILL like a country stuck in the Middle Ages.

America has sacrificed enough to chase AQ out of Afghanistan, and the technology to hunt them down in 2021 is light years ahead of where it was in 2001…without boots on the ground.

In addition to the lives and money sent into the Afghan abyss, the world has moved on from chasing AQ, and OBL is long dead.

None of that presupposes that Afghanistan will never birth, or harbour, another terrorist, but then London could do exactly the same thing AGAIN (7/7).

It is all well and good to tout your denigration of the American cost by comparing it to the advances provided to females, but at what price, for how long, and paid for by whom?

There is nothing quite like the “enlightened arrogance” of the European/American male, who determined the entire world should live by HIS version of what a decent life is, what rights everyone should have, and what access to the kind of life he enjoys should be provided to others.

Meanwhile, racism is alive and well, sexism is alive and well, and inequality of all kinds runs rampant across Europe & America, but we should OCCUPY A FOREIGN COUNTRY to make them in our image?

Afghans, like Brits and Yanks before them, need to stand up for themselves sooner or later…and 20 yrs seems like later is here. Alas, it appears the men…the ones who were supposed to be the powerful ones in their families…look like they’re the weak ones, and the women and girls are the ones who have been showing ALL the courage in the face of aggression, which makes the weakness of the men in the Afghan govt even sadder.

Just not sad enough to stay in an intractable war costing billions of American tax dollars per month with 10,000s of American boots on the ground ad infinitim. Sorry.
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America has sacrificed fuck all for Afghanistan.

Please don't come whining to me about 2,500 dead Americans when you killed 100,000 Afghans and 66,000 Afghan Army personnel.

You used it to keep your industrial military complex going and expanding, and the one single ounce of good to come from it was that Afghanistan had made significant steps forward in women's rights, healthcare, and some development indices.

The only thing you had to do was not withdraw the tiny outpost of troops that kept the Taliban at bay, and not strike a peace deal with the Taliban, gifting them the country back, releasing 5,000 high value prisoners to destroy the morale of the Afghan army and then fuck off leaving the people who helped you to get slaughtered.


And while we're throwing a pity party for the Americans lets not forget who trained, financed and put the Taliban in power in the first place and brought in their religious theocracy because you were so fucking consumed with the red scare.

ChicagoBlue said:
There is nothing quite like the “enlightened arrogance” of the European/American male, who determined the entire world should live by HIS version of what a decent life is, what rights everyone should have
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By the way, yes, I actually think Afghan women shouldn't be married off as 12 year olds, be forbidden from going to school, or walk alone, and they don't deserve to get beaten, raped, and killed for whatever reason her husband comes up with.

I think that's the kind of rights everyone should have, and I think the country that installed an extreme Islamic theocracy that takes away those rights has some responsibility to fix it, even if it means putting 2% of your military there to keep things normal for 20, 30, 40 years while things recover.

Sorry for my European arrogance.
 
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domalino said:
America has sacrificed fuck all for Afghanistan.

Please don't come whining to me about 2,500 dead Americans when you killed 100,000 Afghans and 66,000 Afghan Army personnel.

You used it to keep your industrial military complex going and expanding, and the one single ounce of good to come from it was that Afghanistan had made significant steps forward in women's rights, healthcare, and some development indices.

The only thing you had to do was not withdraw the tiny outpost of troops that kept the Taliban at bay, and not strike a peace deal with the Taliban, gifting them the country back, releasing 5,000 high value prisoners to destroy the morale of the Afghan army and then fuck off leaving the people who helped you to get slaughtered.


And while we're throwing a pity party for the Americans lets not forget who trained, financed and put the Taliban in power in the first place and brought in their religious theocracy because you were so fucking consumed with the red scare.



By the way, yes, I actually think Afghan women shouldn't be married off as 12 year olds, be forbidden from going to school, or walk alone, and they don't deserve to get beaten, raped, and killed for whatever reason her husband comes up with.

I think that's the kind of rights everyone should have, and I think the country that installed an extreme Islamic theocracy that takes away those rights has some responsibility to fix it, even if it means putting 2% of your military there to keep things normal for 20, 30, 40 years while things recover.

Sorry for my European arrogance.
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So, to recap:

You gave NOTHING.
Thousands of American lives and $2T is NOTHING.
War should not contain death, especially not the deaths of those harboring OBL or keeping those women and girls in shackles.

But, the world is supposed to bend to your delicate white, European, privileged male sensibilities (which I share, btw) because, well, that’s the way it should be…just like in your liberal western democracy?

Err, OK! Got it!

Did I miss anything?
RME & SMH.
 
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First and foremost we should look after our own. When we have then we can take in refugees. If we take in refugees over our own, which is currently happening then we are failing our own. Sorry but that's the way i see it right now.

To coin a phrase, 'charity begins at home'. Well it should, absolutely!
 
ChicagoBlue said:
But, the world is supposed to bend to your delicate white, European, privileged male sensibilities (which I share, btw) because, well, that’s the way it should be…just like in your liberal western democracy?
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I don't know if you're ignorant or stupid, but these aren't the european privileges of "western liberal democracies", these are basic human rights which the people of Afghanistan had before your government installed a religious theocracy.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that Afghans want to live under the tyranny of the Taliban or that their beliefs are Afghan beliefs and it's ignorant bollocks.
 
domalino said:
I don't know if you're ignorant or stupid, but these aren't the european privileges of "western liberal democracies", these are basic human rights which the people of Afghanistan had before your government installed a religious theocracy.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that Afghans want to live under the tyranny of the Taliban or that their beliefs are Afghan beliefs and it's ignorant bollocks.
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No, my argument is that the pro-liberal western ideals you espouse for these women and girls had not existed in their culture since Taliban rule. While Americans were occupying the country and propping up the Govt, things improved for them.

You seem to believe that Americans sacrificed NOTHING, yet want them to stay and ensure girls can go to school, aren’t married and raped at 12, and on and on.

Must feel grand being such a stalwart from your keyboard. Beyond that, best not to bother you, eh?!

Let’s send some other poor fucker’s kid over there to police that for you, shall we?

It was evacuate or escalate. Your choice was clear…as long as it was someone else doing the heavy lifting. Got it!

As for the assertion that I think Afghans WANT to live under the Taliban, that’s ignorant. Nor do I think millions of Chinese want to live under Communism or the millions of others who live under the oppression of their own particular state think it’s desirable.

What to do?

What will YOU do?

America and most Americans have said they’re not willing to spend more time, lives, money or other resources propping up an apparently non-existent Afghan government, and the Taliban, who already “owned” most of Afghanistan and have bided their time until this day, have simply moved into what little Americans controlled in the end.

As for your use of the term “human rights,” it is a flexible, evolving term that has changed throughout history. Your version is a 21st century Western notion of complete freedom that hasn’t existed for most of human history.

Sure, we all agree that child rape is a bad thing. Despicable. But even the terms “child” and “rape” are words that operate on a sliding scale in different cultures snd religions. Again, more imposition of your privileged life into the lives of people far, far away from your Euro ideals.

Arranged marriages anyone? How many of those will take place this year in “first world” countries like England? And on and on and on.

But, it’s me that ignorant? Or am I just stupid?

Either way, got it.

Hate to hit and run, but got to pack for my vacation, as my privileged white male Anglo-American ass is heading to Hawaii in the morning for a few weeks of sun & surf.

Afghanistan will still be there, assaulting your sensibilities when I get back, though, so take the time to regale me with the “solution!”
 
ChicagoBlue said:
No, my argument is that the pro-liberal western ideals you espouse for these women and girls had not existed in their culture since Taliban rule.
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"Hasn't existed in their culture"

Yes how could they ever go back to the heady days of...1995?

This is the big flaw in your vile attempts to pretend that the Talibans oppressive regime is just a different culture to the West. The time when Afghanistan wasn't run under Sharia law is still in living memory. It wasn't Afghan culture until you lot put assault rifles in the hands of every religious extremist you could.

If your country didn't want to station troops over there for the long term then you shouldn't have installed a terrorist harbouring Islamic theocracy, then torn the country apart for 20 years when the chickens came home to roost.

You did. Now how about you clean up your mess instead of running away again because the American public has flip flopped yet again from "defenders of the free world" to "Fuck everything that's not America".
 
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domalino said:
"Hasn't existed in their culture"

Yes how could they ever go back to the heady days of...1995?


If your country didn't want to station troops over there for the long term then you shouldn't have installed a terrorist harbouring Islamic theocracy, then torn the country apart for 20 years when the chickens came home to roost.

You did. Now fucking clean up your mess instead of running away again.
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Speaking of “running away again,” maybe we should just go back to the source (the 1840s, when the US was in its infancy, post-revolution) and put it on your doorstep?

Should we discuss the First, Second, or Third Anglo-Afghan war in discussing how Afghanistan has developed? The East India Company or your favorite US MIC?

You are so idealist, yet simplistic. And you wonder why geopolitics doesn’t bend to your will?!

Were that we could go back to 1995, and not have 9/11/01 play out in the same way.

Or, maybe pre-80’s so there is no Mujahideen, backed by the Allies to fight the Russians?

How far back do we go back in charting the history of a country, or should we just cherry pick the days and weeks you want and the outcomes you long for?

Grow up.
 
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ChicagoBlue said:
Or, maybe we just go back to the source and put it on your doorstep? Should we discuss the First, Second, Third Anglo-Afghan wars in discussing how Afghanistan has developed? The East India Company or your favorite US MIC?

You are so idealist, yet simplistic. And you wonder why geopolitics doesn’t bend to your will?!
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You could try, but it would be pretty fucking stupid because despite the interference of the 19th century they were a relatively well functioning USSR sattelite that would likely have ended up like Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc. if it weren't for the USA's ever present Red hysteria.

Functioning, stable countries if not the embodiment of the Western Democratic ideal.
 
domalino said:
You could try, but it would be pretty fucking stupid because despite the interference of the 19th century they were a relatively well functioning USSR sattelite that would likely have ended up like Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc. if it weren't for the USA's ever present Red hysteria.

Functioning, stable countries if not the embodiment of the Western Democratic ideal.
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So those Russian planes and choppers were dropping confetti on the Afghans?

It took American shoulder launched missiles, and those “western democratic ideals” you seem to like so much for women and young children, but not so much when they mean they necessitate war, to get the Russians…not a “stan” …out of Afghanistan.

Thing you seem to have trouble keeping straight is when you’re in favor of intervention (for women and children) and when you’re not (geopolitical interests)! Hence, my comment about your oh-so-idealistic view of how the fucking pointy end of geopolitics works! You always seem to want sunshine and rainbows…without the rain!

And, before you go too far down the “fucking militaristic Yank tosser” rabbit hole, I was NEVER in favor of EITHER the war in Afghanistan OR Iraq. But, since no-one asked me and we got into them anyway, I guess we are all stuck with the aftermath of 9/11 and what it wrought.

The world seems to like America spending their dough and sending their troops where THEY want them, but doesn’t seem to like it when America tells them the way it’s all going to have to go down.

The voters, who have funded this clusterfuck, have said “Enough!” Unless Boris wants to use your dough and your young lives to try to save all the women from having to cover themselves again, then you’re going to have to swallow a big piece of STFU pie on American foreign policy!

Its about 11:30pm here and I’m up early. Enjoy the rest of the thread. I’m flying off to Maui on my hols for a few weeks and I can assure you Afghanistan will be the last thing on my mind while watching the whales, swimming with the turtles and sipping Mai Tais on the beach!
 
BlueMoonRisin’ said:
First and foremost we should look after our own. When we have then we can take in refugees. If we take in refugees over our own, which is currently happening then we are failing our own. Sorry but that's the way i see it right now.

To coin a phrase, 'charity begins at home'. Well it should, absolutely!
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Almost meaningless words. Who is the “we” that should look after our own first and who are our own that need looking after? The government and successive ones before show no appetite for or inclination to look after our own. We are a wealthy country that has citizens living in abject poverty. Looking after refugees isn’t the cause of that
 
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