Russian invasion of Ukraine

If a countries defensive weapon makes you impotent it can’t be considered purely in benign terms. However no amount of anti missile systems on the border of Russia would stop them landing a nuke on top of the White House - surely that would be the remit of re-entry defence systems in and around the US.

They do reduce Russias ability to bully its neighbours however so from a Russian perspective are a bit of a nagging inconvenience.
Some surface to air missile systems effectively create no-fly zones and if that no-fly zone is big enough then you can protect an awfully large land mass with just a few systems, including some protection against ICBM's and Cruise missiles.
 
Yep. Apparently Ukrainians sometimes take it as a bit of an insult when their country is referred to as "The" Ukraine as it implies that it is an outpost of someone's empire rather than a country in its own right.
Twinned with The Wirral then.
 
Feels like the US and, in particular, the UK want this to happen more than they don’t, listening to the rhetoric being cranked up. Imminent invasion, stop flying, Wednesday is the day, anytime now are just some of the words uttered by Truss, the Foreign Secretary (how to Christ has that happened?). Surely not even Johnson, so wrapped up in himself as he’s always been, wouldn’t want a war to take the spotlight away from him, would he?
 
Feels like the US and, in particular, the UK want this to happen more than they don’t, listening to the rhetoric being cranked up. Imminent invasion, stop flying, Wednesday is the day, anytime now are just some of the words uttered by Truss, the Foreign Secretary (how to Christ has that happened?). Surely not even Johnson, so wrapped up in himself as he’s always been, wouldn’t want a war to take the spotlight away from him, would he?
We're at the 'sales' stage where what has already been decided is sold to the public. Same as the weapons inspection / UN /WMD charade twenty years ago. This will involve further demonisation of Putin/Russia and casting the US/UK/NATO as a band of brave hobbits and dwarves with the occasional white wizard about to confront evil - all in a nice media friendly package. If anyone thinks our govts give a fuck about Ukraine or Ukrainians I have some magic beans you may be interested in.
 
I don’t think anyone would describe Fulgencio Batista as democratic. He was a nasty **** but he was the US’s nasty **** so we will turn a blind eye on that one ;)
Regime change is hard, but if the authority is willing to play ball…
 
What Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, UK, US, Turkey etc sent to Ukraine? Or what NATO figuratively has in all the countries in Eastern Europe outside of Ukraine?
Take your pick, but the US sense of international victimhood makes it look like Fenway sports are running their foreign policy.
Maybe Russia should send troops here?...
BBC News - Chagos Islands: Mauritian flag raised on British-controlled islands
 
That's my point. Those missile systems could be used offensively against Ukrainian aircraft (or other nations aircraft) that are attempting to repel a Russian invasion.
Indeed. This is why OFFENSIVE weapons are built.

The issue is chicken and egg, and the need for both types of weapons.

Their DEPLOYMENT, especially the mobile change of their deployment, is the key in this instance, of course.

Nobody said a word about Russia having all these weapons 12 months ago. However, how they’re currently being deployed is an issue.

Putin will say, with a straight face, they’re doing exercises on their own sovereign territory. This is absolutely correct. The problem is it is highly provocative and is clearly so offensively capable as to require a defensive response we, at a minimum, and the possible deployment of offensive capabilities due to proximity.

Given recent history, both verbally from sputum himself and the Russian annexation of Crimea and other eastern territory, this is only prudent. As is the request of support from allies.
 
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Feels like the US and, in particular, the UK want this to happen more than they don’t, listening to the rhetoric being cranked up. Imminent invasion, stop flying, Wednesday is the day, anytime now are just some of the words uttered by Truss, the Foreign Secretary (how to Christ has that happened?). Surely not even Johnson, so wrapped up in himself as he’s always been, wouldn’t want a war to take the spotlight away from him, would he?

Honestly do you not think Labour would be all over it if Johnson was making it up or egging for war?

Anyroad there is zero chance of this becoming a shooting war with Russia at this stage - It will be severe sanctions.

But it will likely result in increased military build up nearer to Russia which is sort of what the Russians are trying to avoid. And once all that military equipment and troops are in place it is one poor judgement from either side away from all out war in Europe.
 
If a countries defensive weapon makes you impotent it can’t be considered purely in benign terms. However no amount of anti missile systems on the border of Russia would stop them landing a nuke on top of the White House - surely that would be the remit of re-entry defence systems in and around the US.

They do reduce Russias ability to bully its neighbours however so from a Russian perspective are a bit of a nagging inconvenience.
The threat of Global Thermonuclear War has been present since the 50s, yet not occurred, even though “conventional” war is omnipresent.

If it were as simple as “Fuck off or we will nuke you!” then every government on earth has wasted trillions of dollars on “lesser” arms, the USA and Russia included!

Defensive weapons don’t make all offensive weapons impotent, nor is that an achievable intent. What they do do, though, is help create time to launch an offensive response and may help maintain key infrastructure.

We are getting deep in the weeds and starting to stray from the facts staring us in the face…

Russia is creating instability in Ukraine.

Ukraine is a key geopolitical territory for Russia, both militarily and economically.

The timing of Russia’s show of force is noteworthy. It undermines key European, American and old Soviet foes at a time when the global economy in a period of inflection, and that inflection may aid Russia (increasingly higher oil & gas revenues).

Putin SEES an opportunity, which often leads him to SEIZE the opportunity.

We shall see if he seizes it shortly, and how that plays out will be instructive for the next generation.

Do economic sanctions work, in the absence of retaliatory military actions, or can a country be so vital to greasing the wheels of the global economy it makes any economic hardship one seeks to impose on the antagonist unreasonably painful to the protagonist(s)…or their allies?

Will Germany succumb to the will if the U.S. and stall N2 if German gas prices go vertical or Germans start to complain of American interference?

Is France appeasing Russia or will Macron stand up, and by his German, American and Ukrainian ally?

What CAN America do in the presence of a weak, or fractured, Europe?

Just how important to global stability is an independent Ukraine, and how much is the west willing to do to maintain it?

Putin looks like he’s willing to ask these questions.
 
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Feels like the US and, in particular, the UK want this to happen more than they don’t, listening to the rhetoric being cranked up. Imminent invasion, stop flying, Wednesday is the day, anytime now are just some of the words uttered by Truss, the Foreign Secretary (how to Christ has that happened?). Surely not even Johnson, so wrapped up in himself as he’s always been, wouldn’t want a war to take the spotlight away from him, would he?
Beeb reporting, forecourt fuel prices rocketing due to the Russian / Ukraine situ.
Suppose some will fall for it.
 
Russian rhetoric dialling down a notch or two...

Putin's staged briefings with Lavrov and defense minister Shoigu today both point more towards de-escalation.
-Lavrov says they should keep talking with the West.
-Shoigu says military exercises will end soon.

Russia's defense minister briefs Putin on camera saying the huge Russian exercises, incl. those near Ukraine, will be completed in "near future".
"Some of the exercises are approaching their completion, part will be completed in the near future." @
ABC
 
Take your pick, but the US sense of international victimhood makes it look like Fenway sports are running their foreign policy.
Maybe Russia should send troops here?...
BBC News - Chagos Islands: Mauritian flag raised on British-controlled islands

If we start going around the world and through the ages for questionable/shit foreign policy this thread will soon outstrip the Messi one.

I don’t see any evidence to suggest that NATO has built up any capability that would trigger Russia. In fact they are limited by the NATO-Russia pact to have any permanent troops stationed in the area - although Biden has said should Russia further cross into Ukraine he can go fuck himself if he thinks that pact holds any water - or words to that effect.
 

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